Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
My mind is made up on this subject,
I know it is. It always was. That's your problem.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I initially planned on ignoring you and Arhael,
I thought you probably were but you never confirmed it which is why I still address you. In any case it's more for others who might be reading. As you've admitted yourself your never going to sway on the subject no matter how logical and convincing the argument is.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He was holding back there.
It's funny you say this for no reason, and yet you'll go nuts at the idea that Sids may have held back or thrown the fight against Mace?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In no way do either fight show that Dooku is on the level of Yoda.
That's exactly what both fights showed. They didn't show them to be "equals". But Dooku was definitely shown to be on the same level.
Jedi Mom
Lol Yoda holding back on Geonosis?
Why not?
Obi-Wan is reluctant to strike down Anakin/Vader in ROTS because of the attachment between them; is it so difficult to imagine that Yoda would be similarly conflicted?
Meanwhile, in Dooku's own words: "I intend to enjoy killing you."
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
There is no proof at all, just baseless assumptions.
Not really.
He's inarguably inferior to Yoda as both a swordsman and a Force user. The futility of his efforts at Geonosis are highlighted in the script, novelization, and most (if not all) the relevant source material. On Vjun, where he has a decisive home turf advantage, he still loses.
Yeah, the AotC novel made it abundantly clear that Dooku was inferior to Yoda by a fair margin. That much cannot be argued.
Granted, Dooku *may* have been a bit weaker than normal thanks to his fight with Skywalker moments beforehand, but he stood no chance of winning regardless. To Dooku's credit, though, he was one of the only beings powerful/skillful enough to give Yoda any sort of battle for an extended period of time.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Why not?Obi-Wan is reluctant to strike down Anakin/Vader in ROTS because of the attachment between them; is it so difficult to imagine that Yoda would be similarly conflicted?
''With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.''
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Meanwhile, in Dooku's own words: "I intend to enjoy killing you."
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really.He's inarguably inferior to Yoda as both a swordsman and a Force user. The futility of his efforts at Geonosis are highlighted in the script, novelization, and most (if not all) the relevant source material. On Vjun, where he has a decisive home turf advantage, he still loses.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, the AotC novel made it abundantly clear that Dooku was inferior to Yoda by a fair margin. That much cannot be argued.
That means nothing. Because what happened in the movie is the final version of events which is very very different to what was depicted in both the Novel and the Script.
Clearly Lucas decided he wanted a much more even looking fight before the final filming.
Originally posted by Galan007
Granted, Dooku *may* have been a bit weaker than normal thanks to his fight with Skywalker moments beforehand, but he stood no chance of winning regardless.
His fight against Skywalker and Kenobi would have had an affect on his Force reserves.
No one's arguing he could have won. Or that he's Yoda's equal. Just that he's closer to Yoda than a lot of people are giving him credit for, especially in Sabers. Which he's already proven in AOTC. So that level of parity that exists between the 2 really should never have been in question.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Yes, because according to RotS novel he ''let go'' of everything and was not reluctant to kill Anakin. There was no attachment.''With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.''
The excerpt you posted takes place about halfway through the duel. Obi-Wan initially opted for a suicide mission (taking on Sidious) rather than crossing blades with Anakin. And Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide confirms that when Obi-Wan lets go of his attachment for Anakin, "the battle turns for the Jedi."
The notion that there was no turmoil in Obi-Wan and no reluctance to strike Anakin down is unsupported by the source material, period.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
So? Sith fight to kill, Jedi fight to disarm. Fighting to disarm is not = restraining yourself and holding back.
Yeah, no. Not wanting to kill your opponent in a fight to the death = restraining yourself and holding back.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
No one is arguing that he is inferior to Yoda in all ways. But burden is on you to provide proof Yoda held back on Dooku.
It's been offered ad nauseam. Yoda deflected the brunt of Dooku's Force attacks in AOTC rather than respond in kind and Yoda: Dark Rendezvous is a monument to Yoda's enduring attachment for the Count: "Wish to hurt you, I do not!" versus "I intend to enjoy killing you." To say nothing of Yoda's impressive performance against a man who is also indisputably Dooku's superior.
They're not equals and they're not near-equals. If so, Dooku should have been able to win on Vjun. There is a decisive and noticeable gap between Dooku and Yoda.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The excerpt you posted takes place about halfway through the duel. Obi-Wan initially opted for a suicide mission (taking on Sidious) rather than crossing blades with Anakin. And Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide confirms that when Obi-Wan lets go of his attachment for Anakin, "the battle turns for the Jedi."
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The notion that there was no turmoil in Obi-Wan and no reluctance to strike Anakin down is unsupported by the source material, period.
Of course not. Except this;
"I wasn't strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan," Vader said. Sidious had had enough.
"No, you weren't," he said. "So just imagine what Yoda might have done to you." He flung his words with brutal honesty. "Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, no. Not wanting to kill your opponent in a fight to the death = restraining yourself and holding back.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's been offered ad nauseam.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yoda deflected the brunt of Dooku's Force attacks in AOTC rather than respond in kind
a) Jedi don't use the force offensively
b) Yoda didn't use the force offensively against Sidious besides one force push. Doesn't mean he's holding back.
c) It's pretty obvious that the fight between Yoda and Dooku was supposed to be the final touch and the first time to see Yoda in action. Had he used it offensively the fight would be over in short time. It's more a matter of PIS than Yoda holding back.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
and Yoda: Dark Rendezvous is a monument to Yoda's enduring attachment for the Count: "Wish to hurt you, I do not!" versus "I intend to enjoy killing you."
Right. And in a saberlock;
"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."
Originally posted by The_Tempest
To say nothing of Yoda's impressive performance against a man who is also indisputably Dooku's superior.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
They're not equals and they're not near-equals. If so, Dooku should have been able to win on Vjun. There is a decisive and noticeable gap between Dooku and Yoda.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERThe joy of novels is that they provide much-needed narrative where there formerly was none. So long as said narration doesn't contradict on-screen happenings, then it is perfectly canon. That said, the novel clearly described Yoda as having the distinct advantage.
Clearly Lucas decided he wanted a much more even looking fight before the final filming.
"Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust. But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside. Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide. It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast. Not fast enough. With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.
Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard. Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade. With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right. Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately. Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade. A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back. The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack. Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force. "Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back. "The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin[...]" - AotC
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIt's possible. Both the film and novel make it clear that Anakin put up a much better fight than Dooku was prepared for.
His fight against Skywalker and Kenobi would have had an affect on his Force reserves.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERDooku is close enough to Yoda's level as to not be casually dismissed-- he's close enough to put up a good fight for an extended period of time. However, he's not close enough to ever have a shot at winning.
No one's arguing he could have won. Or that he's Yoda's equal. Just that he's closer to Yoda than a lot of people are giving him credit for, especially in Sabers. Which he's already proven in AOTC. So that level of parity that exists between the 2 really should never have been in question.
Even on Vjun, a place where Dooku was amped, while Yoda may have been weaker-than-normal, Dooku still proved unable to slay the little green freak.
Originally posted by Galan007
The joy of novels is that they provide much-needed narrative where there formerly was none. So long as said narration doesn't contradict on-screen happenings, then it is perfectly canon. That said, the novel clearly described Yoda as having the distinct advantage.
That's the problem though. There are clear contradictions between the novel and the movie versions of the fight. And the contradictions are referring mainly to the parts where Yoda looks superior.
Yoda never stands in one spot deflecting all Dooku's best attacks.
Yoda also never has Dooku "skipping back desperately."
Like I said it seems to me GL originally intended a bigger gap between the 2 but decided to change that before the final cut. The novel and script will be based on original intentions.
Originally posted by Galan007
Dooku is close enough to Yoda's level as to not be casually dismissed-- he's close enough to put up a good fight for an extended period of time. However, he's not close enough to ever have a shot at winning.
👆
Originally posted by Galan007
Even on Vjun, a place where Dooku was amped, while Yoda may have been weaker-than-normal, Dooku still proved unable to slay the little green freak.
Going by that fight though we have to accept Windu and Dooku as pretty much equals at least. As the description of their equality not only comes from that same novel, but in the description of that same fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Going by that fight though we have to accept Windu and Dooku as pretty much equals at least. As the description of their equality not only comes from that same novel, but in the description of that same fight.
The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
Notice the ''but here on Vjun'', clearly indicating he's superior to Mace on Vjun.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERI think you need to watch the on-screen battle again, and apply the novel's narrative accordingly. You might be surprised.
That's the problem though. There are clear contradictions between the novel and the movie versions of the fight. And the contradictions are referring mainly to the parts where Yoda looks superior.Yoda never stands in one spot deflecting all Dooku's best attacks.
Yoda also never has Dooku "skipping back desperately."
Like I said it seems to me GL originally intended a bigger gap between the 2 but decided to change that before the final cut. The novel and script will be based on original intentions.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERI've never thought of them as anything but equals, personally.
Going by that fight though we have to accept Windu and Dooku as pretty much equals at least.
Theoretically, Mace/Vaapad, *should* have an advantage over the dark-side-wielding Dooku, but their brief scuffle during Obsession showed differently. Dark Rendezvous also made it clear that not even Mace/Vaapad could have beaten the amped Dooku that Yoda was fighting on Vjun-- even on neutral ground the best Mace could hope for was a stalemate.
Originally posted by Galan007
Correct.However, the novel says nothing about Dooku being weakened from his fight with the duo-- that is purely opinion.
But from everything we know from other SW Material, fights happening immediately prior should not be ignored.
The same novel for instance actually describes Yoda.. Yes Yoda, as being "exhausted" by the time he approaches Obi-Wan and Anakin.
So if Yoda was exhausted from his fight with Dooku and catching the Pillar, then it's more than reasonable to assume Dooku (with presumably less force reserves than Yoda) would have been effected from 2 prior fights.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIf the fight with Dooku were what had "exhausted" Yoda, then he wouldn't have had enough strength left to stop tens of tons of steel(in addition to the momentum generated by said mass) from falling toward Kenobi/Anakin. That, imho, was the final straw which "exhausted" Yoda. Not saying he didn't expend a lot of energy in his battle with Dooku, though-- he definitely did. However, he was still overpowering Dooku as of the final scene of their saber battle-- so he couldn't have been too terribly fatigued:
But from everything we know from other SW Material, fights happening immediately prior should not be ignored.The same novel for instance actually describes Yoda.. Yes Yoda, as being "exhausted" by the time he approaches Obi-Wan and Anakin.
So if Yoda was exhausted from his fight with Dooku and catching the Pillar, then it's more than reasonable to assume Dooku (with presumably less force reserves than Yoda) would have been effected from 2 prior fights.
"Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force. "Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back."
Side-note: why didn't Yoda just slide Anakin/Kenobi out of the way, instead of barely mustering enough power to stop the entire crane? Whadda showoff!
So are we clear now... Dooku can compete with Yoda for awhile..but in the end has no chance of winning besides a lucky one off time. There really doesn't need to be anymore said on the subject. Nobody is sayign Dooku is some weak scrub who isn't even the same continent as Yoda... What we are saying is that Yoda is his superior and this has been shown over and over again. What we are also saying is that Mace.. with the help of Vaapad has the clear advantage over Dooku. I might even go so far as saying it would be a better fight than Dooku vs. Yoda.. but in the end... Mace still holds the advantage and would wi nmore times than not.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Good. Now tell me, according to the Ultimate Visual Guide, where in the fight does Obi-Wan let go of his attachment?
I don't remember nor do I have my copy on hand. Perhaps Galan007 will be able to elucidate.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Of course not. Except this;"I wasn't strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan," Vader said. Sidious had had enough.
"No, you weren't," he said. "So just imagine what Yoda might have done to you." He flung his words with brutal honesty. "Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader.
Did Sidious witness the duel or interview Obi-Wan in its aftermath?
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
No. You can either choose to kill or to disarm your opponent. If you choose to disarm rather than kill, fine, but you are still trying to disarm your opponent as fast as you can.
This has been debunked again and again by anyone with a modicum of experience or understanding with real combat. Fighting to disarm or subdue is worlds apart from fighting to kill, the same way that a father will restrain himself when wrestling his adolescent son.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
No proof, only opinions.
The only opinions introduced to this topic are the desperate wishes of Dooku's legion of fanboys who operate under the delusion that he's equitable to Yoda or Sidious. Kindly dismount the good Count's crotch; his bones are too brittle for your incessant gyrating.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Eh. He did send the lightning back on him.
Once.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Besides, Yoda not using the force offensive doesn't mean he's holding back.
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
a) Jedi don't use the force offensively
b) Yoda didn't use the force offensively against Sidious besides one force push. Doesn't mean he's holding back.
😐
So Jedi don't offensively use the Force in one point but then you concede that Yoda offensively used the Force against Sidious?
And, if memory serves, he used the Force offensively against Sidious three times: once with the Force push, once with the returned pod, and once with the lightning he threw back.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
c) It's pretty obvious that the fight between Yoda and Dooku was supposed to be the final touch and the first time to see Yoda in action. Had he used it offensively the fight would be over in short time. It's more a matter of PIS than Yoda holding back.
Not really.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Right. And in a saberlock;"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."
Yeah, after exhausting all other options, he's willing to kill Dooku. Still a far cry from going into the fight wanting blood.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Another thing for you to prove.
facepalm
So now Dooku isn't weaker than Sidious?
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
The only thing that their fight on Vjun establishes is that Yoda is superior to Dooku, not by how much.
SIDIOUS_66 has already established solid arguments regarding Yoda's disadvantage on Vjun and Dooku's advantage. You've made it clear that you're eager to disregard the fight in order to leverage a favorable outcome for Dooku, but I'm disinclined to agree to that. The fact of the matter is that Yoda's attachment for Dooku has been well explored in the source material and that, unlike his duel with Sidious, Yoda did not go into the fight intending to kill him.
You can pretend all you like that Dooku and Yoda (& apparently Sidious now) are near-equals; you're hardly the first to stroke the Count's... er... ego. But that's all it is: pretend.