Originally posted by The_TempestHere's the full excerpt from The Ultimate Visual Guide:
I don't remember nor do I have my copy on hand. Perhaps Galan007 will be able to elucidate.
So all we know is that Kenobi finally stopped holding back after he and Vader battled "through the main collection plant of the old lava mine, across platforms that stretch over riverbeds of molten rock"--- so quite late in the battle, it would seem.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't remember nor do I have my copy on hand. Perhaps Galan007 will be able to elucidate.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Did Sidious witness the duel or interview Obi-Wan in its aftermath?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This has been debunked again and again by anyone with a modicum of experience or understanding with real combat. Fighting to disarm or subdue is worlds apart from fighting to kill, the same way that a father will restrain himself when wrestling his adolescent son.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only opinions introduced to this topic are the desperate wishes of Dooku's legion of fanboys who operate under the delusion that he's equitable to Yoda or Sidious. Kindly dismount the good Count's crotch; his bones are too brittle for your incessant gyrating.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Once.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
😐
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And, if memory serves, he used the Force offensively against Sidious three times: once with the Force push, once with the returned pod, and once with the lightning he threw back.
homer
When Yoda force pushed Sidious in the start of the fight it was his own offensive attack. With the lightning and pod, he had to do it to survive. Both cases he ''only'' used the force offensively once against each opponent.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, after exhausting all other options, he's willing to kill Dooku. Still a far cry from going into the fight wanting blood.
Besides, Yoda wishing something is not = he does as he wishes.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalmSo now Dooku isn't weaker than Sidious?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
SIDIOUS_66 has already established solid arguments regarding Yoda's disadvantage on Vjun and Dooku's advantage. You've made it clear that you're eager to disregard the fight in order to leverage a favorable outcome for Dooku, but I'm disinclined to agree to that.
You have posted no proof at all of how much Dooku got amped. Address my argument, because the above is bullshit.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact of the matter is that Yoda's attachment for Dooku has been well explored in the source material and that, unlike his duel with Sidious, Yoda did not go into the fight intending to kill him.
Surely you'd provided something. So far you've provided nothing.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You can pretend all you like that Dooku and Yoda (& apparently Sidious now) are near-equals; you're hardly the first to stroke the Count's... er... ego. But that's all it is: pretend.
Originally posted by Galan007So all we know is that Kenobi finally stopped holding back after he and Vader battled "through the main collection plant of the old lava mine, across platforms that stretch over riverbeds of molten rock"--- so quite late in the battle, it would seem.
I'd say it was right at the end of the fight since that's the only time the battle turned in his favor.
So looks like both Kenobi and Skywalker were conflicted for most that battle then.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What we are also saying is that Mace.. with the help of Vaapad has the clear advantage over Dooku. I might even go so far as saying it would be a better fight than Dooku vs. Yoda.. but in the end... Mace still holds the advantage and would wi nmore times than not.
Yeah except that quote doesn't say "Perhaps only a Vapaad-less Mace Windu would be his equal on neutral ground.."
No according to that quote, from the exact same source and the exact same fight even, that people are using to claim Dooku <<< Yoda, is the quote that flat out states that Dooku and Mace are equals. And if anyone would have the edge it would be Dooku in fact.
And yet I don't remember anyone saying Yoda >>> Mace Windu. Either you should accept the whole source or ignore all of it. But don't just pick and choose which parts of the source you like.
Jedi Mom
I read it. I don't see in the movie that the battle turns for the Jedi though.
That's okay. I didn't see in the movie where Yoda and Dooku fought as equals.
Jedi Mom
So? He felt the danger through the force. He could've found out.
Feel free to prove that he did, at any time.
Jedi Mom
What are you suggesting then? That he fought slower than against Sidious? Did he augment his physical strenght and awareness to a higher degree against Sidious than against Dooku?
Sure, why not? More importantly, Yoda relentlessly pursued Sidious, used the Force against him multiple times, and explicitly sought his death: "Destroy the Sith, we must!"
Not so for Dooku. 😬
Jedi Mom
Yep. How is that holding back?
Because every other time, Yoda simply deflected or quelled the attacks outright. His last move to Dooku in the Force salvo was to crush the lightning, grin, and tell him he had much left to learn.
Jedi Mom
When Yoda force pushed Sidious in the start of the fight it was his own offensive attack. With the lightning and pod, he had to do it to survive. Both cases he ''only'' used the force offensively once against each opponent
Nah, that's pretty stupid. Yoda didn't have to hurl the pod back to survive nor did he have to try to throw it back in Sidious's face. He could have cast each aside as he did with Dooku and elected not to.
Jedi Mom
Is this supposed to compensate for your lack of argument?
No, it's supposed to indicate my lack of interest in pursuing that ridiculous line of argumentation. You're trying to appeal to out-of-universe reasons for why Yoda didn't attack Dooku with all his might. His restraint has been adequately justified in-universe.
Jedi Mom
You really think that he only want's to ''destroy'' Dooku when he says it? Considering it was in a saber lock, it's logical to think he'd try it right from the start of their fight.
Oh, please. We see Dooku clash sabers with Anakin in "Shadow Hunter" under strict orders to keep him alive. The fact that they whip out their blades does not constitute proof that they're going for the kill.
You've proven yourself to be woefully ignorant of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, I suggest you go back and read it because I'm not going to teach you the 300+ page book. But I will give you this crucial tidbit:
Spoiler:
The entire plot revolves around Yoda traveling to Vjun to redeem Dooku.
He has zero interest in killing the Count until Dooku relentlessly attacks and goads him into doing it. Then, for survival's sake, he's willing to. Dooku, on the other hand, begins the entire affair seeking Yoda's death and initiates the climactic duel trying to literally stab him in the back.
Jedi Mom
Besides, Yoda wishing something is not = he does as he wishes.
No one said Yoda wasn't willing to kill Dooku. But the book makes it abundantly clear that his true goal is to rescue Dooku from the dark side and he exhausts all other options before ever pursuing his death. You'd know this if you actually read it.
Jedi Mom
I thought claims were backed up with stuff. Guess not.
One wouldn't think so from your posts.
From then on, he [Anakin] wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.
—George Lucas, Rolling Stone interview, 2005
Jedi Mom
Yeah, sure I have.You have posted no proof at all of how much Dooku got amped. Address my argument, because the above is bullshit.
I have been addressing your argument, but you've been too eager to derail it with red herrings: questioning Sidious's superiority over Dooku, suggesting Sidious interviewed Obi-Wan post-fight, and generally arguing from ignorance about Dark Rendezvous.
He's powerful enough to crush Ventress by literally lifting his finger on Vjun, whose dark side presence is consistently described as great. I can't give you a percentage boost nor did I claim to be able to. The bottom line is that he was enhanced (which is one of the reasons he chose Vjun to begin with) and Yoda was at a spectacular disadvantage due to attachment, internal conflict, and general restraint.
And he still couldn't get it done. facepalm
Jedi Mom
''Well explored in the source material''?Surely you'd provided something. So far you've provided nothing.
This from the lady whose proof for Sidious magically knowing Obi-Wan's every thought about a fight for which he wasn't present was: "Uh, well he could have sensed it in the Force"?
😂
I've directed you to the damn book that revolves around a grand attempt by Yoda to redeem his fallen apprentice. Try reading its entry on Wookieepedia. Or, how about the back of the damn cover? "Can Yoda win back his once promising pupil from the dark side or will Count Dooku unleash his sinister forces against his former mentor?"
Jedi Mom
What is the next? A personal insult? Calm down.
Not yet, but I'm sure they'll come. In the meantime, read the book and raise your game. Others might have the patience to stand beside you as you clumsily navigate the words and blatantly try to derail the argument, but I don't.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's okay. I didn't see in the movie where Yoda and Dooku fought as equals.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Feel free to prove that he did, at any time.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sure, why not?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because every other time, Yoda simply deflected or quelled the attacks outright. His last move to Dooku in the Force salvo was to crush the lightning, grin, and tell him he had much left to learn.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, that's pretty stupid. Yoda didn't have to hurl the pod back to survive nor did he have to try to throw it back in Sidious's face. He could have cast each aside as he did with Dooku and elected not to.
But none of us have proof for this really.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, it's supposed to indicate my lack of interest in pursuing that ridiculous line of argumentation. You're trying to appeal to out-of-universe reasons for why Yoda didn't attack Dooku with all his might. His restraint has been adequately justified in-universe.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Oh, please. We see Dooku clash sabers with Anakin in "Shadow Hunter" under strict orders to keep him alive. The fact that they whip out their blades does not constitute proof that they're going for the kill.You've proven yourself to be woefully ignorant of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, I suggest you go back and read it because I'm not going to teach you the 300+ page book. But I will give you this crucial tidbit:
Spoiler:
The entire plot revolves around Yoda traveling to Vjun to redeem Dooku.He has zero interest in killing the Count until Dooku relentlessly attacks and goads him into doing it. Then, for survival's sake, he's willing to. Dooku, on the other hand, begins the entire affair seeking Yoda's death and initiates the climactic duel trying to literally stab him in the back.
You say Yoda held back on Geonosis, which would indicate Yoda being vastly superior to Dooku. Now you say he's trying to destroy Dooku on vjun for ''survival's sake''. A ridiculous claim considering you've yet to prove the amp Dooku got.
Besides, Yoda tried to turn Dooku back to the dark side with no intent of hurting him before their clash. He basically says that he loves Dooku enough to do anything to redeem him, and in the case of their lightsaber fight he'll try to kill him, another way of being redeemed from the dark side.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No one said Yoda wasn't willing to kill Dooku. But the book makes it abundantly clear that his true goal is to rescue Dooku from the dark side and he exhausts all other options before ever pursuing his death. You'd know this if you actually read it.
This would make sense if you could prove that Yoda still held back until he said the line about destroying Dooku. And the text certainly doesn't indicate so;
"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.
"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.
"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "
Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.
"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.
"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."
Originally posted by The_Tempest
One wouldn't think so from your posts.From then on, he [Anakin] wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.
—George Lucas, Rolling Stone interview, 2005
I'm questioning his superiority over Dooku in a pure saber fight. When you said ''To say nothing of Yoda's impressive performance against a man who is also indisputably Dooku's superior.'' I thought you were talking about Yoda's performance against Sidious whom he disarmed.
And I've never said Dooku is close to Yoda, or even Sidious in an all out fight. That's not what I am arguing. I am talking in a pure saber fight.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He's powerful enough to crush Ventress by literally lifting his finger on Vjun, whose dark side presence is consistently described as great.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I can't give you a percentage boost nor did I claim to be able to.
I never said he wasn't enhanced. I'm questioning the amp he got.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The bottom line is that he was enhanced (which is one of the reasons he chose Vjun to begin with) and Yoda was at a spectacular disadvantage due to attachment, internal conflict, and general restraint.
You want to go on about attachments, internal conflict and restraint?
"But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
You stand in my citadel. I have at my command servants and droids and great powers of my own that I think would overwhelm even you. It is possible that at a single word, I could have you killed.
"Do you still love him?" his Master said.
Dooku had laughed and braved it out. The idea was ridiculous.
"Ridiculous?" his Master had said, in that soft, terrible voice of his. "I hardly think so."
And then, his voice like honeyed poison, "A good student always loves his teacher."
I could even go on about Dooku [/I]not killing Obi-Wan in RotS was due to attachment, as the novel says. And who do you think his attachment is bigger with, Obi-Wan or Yoda?
[i]Originally posted by The_Tempest
This from the lady whose proof for Sidious magically knowing Obi-Wan's every thought about a fight for which he wasn't present was: "Uh, well he could have sensed it in the Force"?😂
I've directed you to the damn book that revolves around a grand attempt by Yoda to redeem his fallen apprentice. Try reading its entry on Wookieepedia. Or, how about the back of the damn cover? "Can Yoda win back his once promising pupil from the dark side or will Count Dooku unleash his sinister forces against his former mentor?"
Comes from the whose apparant proof is ''read the damn book''.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not yet, but I'm sure they'll come.
😮💨
Jedi Mom
It's pretty obvious, considering he actually did make that statement.
It's pretty stupid, considering he just could have been speculating as to Obi-Wan's mindset. Especially in light of other evidence that conclusively proves Obi-Wan did not want to kill Anakin.
Jedi Mom
Because you can't prove it.
All I need do is prove that Yoda did not go for the throat with Dooku like he did with Sidious. I've done so. Accepting the fact that Yoda drove Dooku to retreat twice despite restraining himself is your burden, not mine.
Jedi Mom
I'd like the proof of this.
Sounds like you need to brush up on your Star Wars. After you read Dark Rendezvous, check out a film called Attack of the Clones.
At :10 mark, Dooku hurls debris, Yoda tosses it aside. Same thing at the :17 mark. Then, Dooku tries to drop rocks from the ceiling on Yoda at :33 mark, Yoda tosses them aside. At :50, Dooku casts lightning and Yoda hurls it back. At the :58 mark, he tries it again and Yoda simply crushes it in his hand, smirks, and taunts him.
Five times Dooku used the Force offensively against Yoda, who deliberately turned the attacks aside except for once.
Jedi Mom
Considering Yoda's big disadvantage when the pods were thrown at him by Dooku, and that he barely managed not to get crushed by the last one thrown (before he hurls one back) it seemed like he had to do it to survive. Unless you believe Yoda could've kept up avoiding more of the pods, which the last one thrown doesn't indicate, I highly doubt it.But none of us have proof for this really.
Yoda didn't have to throw it back to Sidious. All he need do is what he did with Dooku: turn the attacks aside. Of course he wouldn't, since his goal was to kill Sidious, not reason with him.
Jedi Mom
Then please, post the statements that show Yoda restrainting himself.
I've fed you lines from the book and reasonable arguments and you've rejected both because it doesn't fit with your rose-colored vision of Dooku's supremacy. That's your prerogative, but I've satisfied my burden.
Jedi Mom
Seriously Tempest?You say Yoda held back on Geonosis, which would indicate Yoda being vastly superior to Dooku. Now you say he's trying to destroy Dooku on vjun for ''survival's sake''. A ridiculous claim considering you've yet to prove the amp Dooku got.
It's not a ridiculous claim. Circumstances on Geonosis were different: Yoda wasn't under barrage from a strong dark side presence nor was Dooku being bolstered by it. What's more, the fight on Vjun begins with Dooku throwing a civilian out a window, forcing Yoda to save her, and then attacking Yoda with his back turned. Dooku is considerably more aggressive, fueled by the power of the dark side, than on Geonosis. On Vjun, Yoda was in considerably greater danger.
Jedi Mom
Besides, Yoda tried to turn Dooku back to the dark side with no intent of hurting him before their clash. He basically says that he loves Dooku enough to do anything to redeem him, and in the case of their lightsaber fight he'll try to kill him, another way of being redeemed from the dark side.
He also like basically says he doesn't like want to hurt Dooku. No two ways about it: Dooku was going for the throat, Yoda wasn't.
Jedi Mom
Ventress would be amped just the same as Dooku though, so this particular feat shouldn't be any different.
Prove it.
Jedi Mom
I never said he wasn't enhanced. I'm questioning the amp he got.
Right, because Dooku would select a world to host this contest that offered negligible enhancements. Sounds pretty stupid to me. 👆
Jedi Mom
You want to go on about attachments, internal conflict and restraint?
Yeah, you should probably read the book rather than skim it.
Jedi Mom
I could even go on about Dooku [/I]not killing Obi-Wan in RotS was due to attachment, as the novel says. And who do you think his attachment is bigger with, Obi-Wan or Yoda?
You could. But then I'll just counter with Dooku's musings from the novel wherein the prospect of Obi-Wan's broken neck is "lovely" to him, undermining your point and bolstering mine. 😬
Nice red herring, though.
Jedi Mom
Comes from the whose apparant proof is ''read the damn book''.
I'll settle for you reading any book at this point. Dark Rendezvous is about as good of a choice as you can make for Star Wars. But it's apparent that you have zero knowledge of the source material in question and elect, out of desperation, to stall for time. You should try reading the excerpts you posted and, better yet, the things surrounding them.
But I'm disinclined to teach you the book. I've satisfied my burden: you can deal with Dooku's tragic inadequacies next to Yoda and Sidious while you're dealing with your own.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERClearly if Kenobi was still able to stalemate Vader, in spite of holding back throughout most of the battle, he[Vader] couldn't have been 'mo powafuhl den he evar wuz!', as some have incessantly claimed.
I'd say it was right at the end of the fight since that's the only time the battle turned in his favor.So looks like both Kenobi and Skywalker were conflicted for most that battle then.
I think that is the most important point to take away from this. 🙂
Despite all of this, Mace is the superior. While Dooku is as quick as a viper, Mace was invisibly fast. While Dooku fought with control, Mace fought with power.
While Mace was on par with Yoda, Dooku fell behind. Mace could compete with Sidious alone. Dooku needed a Sith above the caliber of Darth Maul to be on that tier.
Dooku was overwhelmed by Anakin's offensive barrage. Mace, in their non-canon battle, was able to nearly stalemate him directly after his battle with Sidious.
Mace in Liberty of Ryloth was able to levitate huge ships, and crash walls unto Defilers, and wreck droidekas with the force. In the battle of dantooine he subdued armies of battle droids unarmed. Dooku was captured by pirates.
Mace could turn the power of dark force users against them. Dooku is no exception to this trait.
Dooku is powerful, but Mace is a head above him.
Originally posted by Jedi MomYou want to go on about attachments, internal conflict and restraint?
"But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
You stand in my citadel. I have at my command servants and droids and great powers of my own that I think would overwhelm even you. It is possible that at a single word, I could have you killed.
"Do you still love him?" his Master said.
Dooku had laughed and braved it out. The idea was ridiculous.
"Ridiculous?" his Master had said, in that soft, terrible voice of his. "I hardly think so."
And then, his voice like honeyed poison, "A good student always loves his teacher."
👆
Good man.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Despite all of this, Mace is the superior. While Dooku is as quick as a viper, Mace was invisibly fast. While Dooku fought with control, Mace fought with power.While Mace was on par with Yoda, Dooku fell behind. Mace could compete with Sidious alone. Dooku needed a Sith above the caliber of Darth Maul to be on that tier.
Dooku was overwhelmed by Anakin's offensive barrage. Mace, in their non-canon battle, was able to nearly stalemate him directly after his battle with Sidious.
Mace in Liberty of Ryloth was able to levitate huge ships, and crash walls unto Defilers, and wreck droidekas with the force. In the battle of dantooine he subdued armies of battle droids unarmed. Dooku was captured by pirates.
Mace could turn the power of dark force users against them. Dooku is no exception to this trait.
Dooku is powerful, but Mace is a head above him.
The worst part about "Dooku Captured" wasn't the pirate fiasco. It was Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Anakin being held in a makeshift prison against their will. That shit wouldn't happen in season 3 onward. Dooku would have caved the place in and beat them all to death with a bunch of rocks.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Despite all of this, Mace is the superior. While Dooku is as quick as a viper, Mace was invisibly fast. While Dooku fought with control, Mace fought with power.
LOL He was flat out said to be superior to Mace in the context when he was "as fast as a viper."
Originally posted by NewGuy01
While Mace was on par with Yoda, Dooku fell behind.
Nope at best he was on par with Dooku. As flat out told to us in Dark Rebdezvous.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace could compete with Sidious alone. Dooku needed a Sith above the caliber of Darth Maul to be on that tier.
Mace was getting overpowered by Sidious's Lightning. He was able to compete with Sidious in Sabers. There's nothing to suggest Dooku wouldn't be able to compete with Sidious in that category alone.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku was overwhelmed by Anakin's offensive barrage. Mace, in their non-canon battle, was able to nearly stalemate him directly after his battle with Sidious.
Oh Mace was tired from his fight with Sidious? In that case you don't think maybe Dooku was tired from his fight with Obi-Wan+Anakin?
Either way Dooku has stalemated Skywalker in the past.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace in Liberty of Ryloth was able to levitate huge ships, and crash walls unto Defilers, and wreck droidekas with the force.
Dooku in "Witches of the Mist" is able to easily levitate multiple Stone Pillars. Dooku's much less powerful apprentice in that same episode is able to "push" a huge ship same as Mace.
Dooku's taken out powerful Jedi Masters like Kenobi with a simple flick of the wrist.
It's Dooku who is said to be, "The Temple's strongest student," and "Most learned in the ways of the Force," not Windu.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
In the battle of dantooine he subdued armies of battle droids unarmed. Dooku was captured by pirates.
Lowballing.
Besides, Dantooine was clearly exagerrated. Windu couldn't do any such thing in AOTC.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace could turn the power of dark force users against them. Dooku is no exception to this trait.
Speculative concept Imho.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku is powerful, but Mace is a head above him.
Not according to every canon source on the subject.
And it certainly can't be seen by comparing their individual fights against the exact same opponents: Sora Bulq, Asajj Ventress and General Grievous.
If anyone looked superior in their fights against those same opponents then it's definitely Count Dooku.
Originally posted by Galan007
Clearly if Kenobi was still able to stalemate Vader, in spite of holding back throughout most of the battle, he[Vader] couldn't have been 'mo powafuhl den he evar wuz!', as some have incessantly claimed.I think that is the most important point to take away from this. 🙂
Or it could be that Kenobi is THAT good. His style is made to fight defensively and last a long time.. i.e. not many would have lasted with that powerful Vader... He knew Anakin inside and out and thus.. even if Aankin was more powerful.. he was able to weather the storm knowing him so well... and lastly he had the edge mentally on Anakin and imo that would always be the difference. He knew how to goad... taunt and get Anakin do make a dumb mistake. This would always be true. So it doesn't mean Anakkin was weaker as the evidence points in the opposite direction.. it means kenobi is THAT good.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's pretty stupid, considering he just could have been speculating as to Obi-Wan's mindset. Especially in light of other evidence that conclusively proves Obi-Wan did not want to kill Anakin.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
All I need do is prove that Yoda did not go for the throat with Dooku like he did with Sidious. I've done so. Accepting the fact that Yoda drove Dooku to retreat twice despite restraining himself is your burden, not mine.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sounds like you need to brush up on your Star Wars. After you read Dark Rendezvous, check out a film called Attack of the Clones.At :10 mark, Dooku hurls debris, Yoda tosses it aside. Same thing at the :17 mark. Then, Dooku tries to drop rocks from the ceiling on Yoda at :33 mark, Yoda tosses them aside. At :50, Dooku casts lightning and Yoda hurls it back. At the :58 mark, he tries it again and Yoda simply crushes it in his hand, smirks, and taunts him.
Five times Dooku used the Force offensively against Yoda, who deliberately turned the attacks aside except for once.
Nowhere does it prove Yoda holding back. Even the AotC novel claims that Yoda turned the lightning away ''but far from easily.''
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yoda didn't have to throw it back to Sidious. All he need do is what he did with Dooku: turn the attacks aside. Of course he wouldn't, since his goal was to kill Sidious, not reason with him.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I've fed you lines from the book and reasonable arguments and you've rejected both because it doesn't fit with your rose-colored vision of Dooku's supremacy. That's your prerogative, but I've satisfied my burden.
Fed me lines? A big LOL @this. I've given you Dooku's own statement he would be able to kill Yoda whenever possible because of the droids, Yoda's own statement that Dooku could have killed him and Dooku's conversation with Sidious.
Good job ignoring all of them by the way. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not a ridiculous claim. Circumstances on Geonosis were different: Yoda wasn't under barrage from a strong dark side presence nor was Dooku being bolstered by it. What's more, the fight on Vjun begins with Dooku throwing a civilian out a window, forcing Yoda to save her, and then attacking Yoda with his back turned. Dooku is considerably more aggressive, fueled by the power of the dark side, than on Geonosis. On Vjun, Yoda was in considerably greater danger.
''considerably greater danger'' as for Dooku being able to have his army of droids able to shoot at Yoda but him not choosing to do it.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He also like basically says he doesn't like want to hurt Dooku. No two ways about it: Dooku was going for the throat, Yoda wasn't.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Prove it.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right, because Dooku would select a world to host this contest that offered negligible enhancements. Sounds pretty stupid to me. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You could. But then I'll just counter with Dooku's musings from the novel wherein the prospect of Obi-Wan's broken neck is "lovely" to him, undermining your point and bolstering mine. 😬Nice red herring, though.
Dooku could've chosen to impale Kenobi with his lightsaber while he had him in the choke or by crushing the platform down on him more violently instead of precisely laying it down upon him.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiThat's the thing, though: according to Gillard, Kenobi wasn't "that good." According to Gillard, Vader was an "enormously" better swordsman.... You see where I'm going with this, yeah?
Or it could be that Kenobi is THAT good.
Gillard's claim, as it pertains to Vader/Kenobi's swordsmanship, is 100% inadmissible-- it has been debunked more times then I care to count. You're welcome. 🙂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL He was flat out said to be superior to Mace in the context when he was "as fast as a viper."Nope at best he was on par with Dooku. As flat out told to us in Dark Rebdezvous.
Mace was getting overpowered by Sidious's Lightning. He was able to compete with Sidious in Sabers. There's nothing to suggest Dooku wouldn't be able to compete with Sidious in that category alone.
Oh Mace was tired from his fight with Sidious? In that case you don't think maybe Dooku was tired from his fight with Obi-Wan+Anakin?
Either way Dooku has stalemated Skywalker in the past.
Dooku in "Witches of the Mist" is able to easily levitate multiple Stone Pillars. Dooku's much less powerful apprentice in that same episode is able to "push" a huge ship same as Mace.
Dooku's taken out powerful Jedi Masters like Kenobi with a simple flick of the wrist.
It's Dooku who is said to be, "The Temple's strongest student," and "Most learned in the ways of the Force," not Windu.
Lowballing.
Besides, Dantooine was clearly exagerrated. Windu couldn't do any such thing in AOTC.Speculative concept Imho.
Not according to every canon source on the subject.
And it certainly can't be seen by comparing their individual fights against the exact same opponents: Sora Bulq, Asajj Ventress and General Grievous.
If anyone looked superior in their fights against those same opponents then it's definitely Count Dooku.
1. Yes, that quote counts Dooku as the superior, yet almost all of Mace's feats outstrip Dooku's. >v<
2. So what? He was able to overcome Sidious in a duel and was able to stop Sidious's lightning with his blade for an extended period. It's evident that Sidious and Mace are in the same tier.
3. Mace's duel against Sidious was a full 2 min battle, followed by stopping Sidious's overpowered lightning and holding it for over a minute. Dooku fought Obi-Wan + Anakin for roughly 30 seconds before tossing Kenobi out and taking Anakin 1 on 1.
Anakin legitimately overpowered Dooku. If what you say is the case, that just provides evidence that Dooku's stamina is VASTLY lower than Mace's.
4. And? Anakin obviously has grown more powerful throughout the course of the Clone Wars, and after Kenobi was defeated Anakin called upon the Dark Side and overpowered Dooku. It's like saying Dooku defeated AotC Anakin so he's able to defeat RotS Anakin just as easily? No. Just no.
5. First of all, I never called Mace's TK superior to Dooku's, HOWEVER--it isn't far off, based on TCW feats. Second of all, the ship Savage Opress pushed was around half the size of the one Mace levitated. Not to mention that we see Savage's raw TK power surpassing Dooku's in their Season 3 battle...
6. No. He's done that AFTER 30-40 seconds of battle, and caught his opponent off guard, and THEN flicked his wrist. I'm doubtful he could just take on 5 Kenobi's and toss them all away by repeatedly flicking his wrist. I really am.
7. Yoda's opinion on the subject. Dooku was indeed the best scholar of the order. Not necessarily the best combatant, however.
8. Fair enough, fair enough...
9. Speculative? It's clearly shown in Shatterpoint and the ROTS novelization. It's very clearly shown to be more then speculative.
10. Dooku faced off with Bulq prior to his turn to the Dark Side, and as Nick Gillard said, embracing the Dark Side allows you to jump up to the next tier of combatants. So it's quite evident that Bulq had gained a lot between his battles with Dooku and Windu respectively.
Mace dealt with Ventress better than Dooku did. She retreated in but two panels, while Ventress was able to hold Dooku off for a good 30 seconds in Season 3 in the 1 on 1 battle.
In LoE Grievous's work against Mace was all circumstantial. Mace has to use his power to keep himself from flying from the train, and was caught off guard by Grievous's usage of Vaapad. And even then, it was only a short battle, ended with a simple Force Push. And in CW he defeated Grievous in seconds.
Dooku needed an ally greater than Darth Maul to compete with Sidious. According to George Lucas, and their battle, Mace alone could compete with Sidious. Mace has been described as being faster, stronger, more verstile, and more gifted than Dooku. My points stand.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
When did he do this? I assume you're refering to Savage.
Yeah. In the episode "Witches of the Mist" after he killed the King of Toydaria and was escaping Obi-Wan and Anakin, he force pushed their craft off a cliff. One handed no less.
Not really that different to what Mace did on Ryloth.
Originally posted by Galan007
That's the thing, though: according to Gillard, Kenobi wasn't "that good." According to Gillard, Vader was an "enormously" better swordsman.... You see where I'm going with this, yeah?Gillard's claim, as it pertains to Vader/Kenobi's swordsmanship, is 100% inadmissible-- it has been debunked more times then I care to count. You're welcome. 🙂
He said Kenobi and Skywalker were equals. That's in the making of ROTS. I've already posted that to you.
And Gillard wasn't the reason I brought it up here. Here I brought it up to show that if Skywalker's performance was hindered by his inner conflict, it doesn't matter because Kenobi was also conflicted in that fight.
Also that same quote you gave says Skywalker attacks were getting more ferocious through the fight. Sounds Similar to how they were against Count Dooku.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
What you don't get is that Mace competed with Sidious in sabers only. And Dooku is more or less Mace's equal in sabers.
