ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Yes, that quote counts Dooku as the superior, yet almost all of Mace's feats outstrip Dooku's. >v<

No they don't. It's one feat he has that puts him above Dooku, which was putting Sidious on his ass.

But

1) There was a context to that fight. Crucial things like environment and starting out with help can have a huge impact on a fight.
2) Fact is Mace is below Yoda who couldn't defeat Sidious.
3) Dooku has never faced Sidious in a Saber duel, but did do well against Yoda who is easily Sidious's equal in Sabers. Probably superior in that respect actually.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
2. So what? He was able to overcome Sidious in a duel and was able to stop Sidious's lightning with his blade for an extended period. It's evident that Sidious and Mace are in the same tier.

See above. Being in the same tier doesn't make them equals. Sidious is more powerful.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
3. Mace's duel against Sidious was a full 2 min battle, followed by stopping Sidious's overpowered lightning and holding it for over a minute. Dooku fought Obi-Wan + Anakin for roughly 30 seconds before tossing Kenobi out and taking Anakin 1 on 1. Anakin legitimately overpowered Dooku. If what you say is the case, that just provides evidence that Dooku's stamina is VASTLY lower than Mace's.

Firstly get your facts right. Mace fought Palpatine(in Sabers) for around 1 min 15 seconds seconds. And that's if you include the scene where they're showing Anakin approaching.

Dooku only began his final one on one with Anakin more than 50 seconds after the whole fight began.

And are we forgetting AOTC? Where Dooku fights, Obi-Wan then Anakin, then has a huge force fight with Yoda, and then finally a Saber fight with him?

So no Dooku doesn't have "vastly" inferior stamina to Mace.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
4. And? Anakin obviously has grown more powerful throughout the course of the Clone Wars, and after Kenobi was defeated Anakin called upon the Dark Side and overpowered Dooku. It's like saying Dooku defeated AotC Anakin so he's able to defeat RotS Anakin just as easily? No. Just no.

Firstly the last fight where they were stalemating was in "Crisis on Naboo" which was an enraged Skywalker fighting late in Season 4 of TCW. Since the whole series was only 5 seasons we can assume it was pretty close to ROTS.

Secondly Skywalker is very inconsistent in his power. He's overpowered the Son and Daughter at one point. So there's nothing to say Mace would have done any better if put in Dooku's place when Skywalker was seemingly performing at his optimum level (from the description in the ROTS novel).

Originally posted by NewGuy01
5. First of all, I never called Mace's TK superior to Dooku's, HOWEVER--it isn't far off, based on TCW feats.

Well you shouldn't have brought in into the discussion then.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Second of all, the ship Savage Opress pushed was around half the size of the one Mace levitated.

I don't remember Mace "levitating" it. IIRC he pushed it same as Savage.

And no it was similar size. The Jedi Craft was much longer, but the Walker much taller. Savage did his feat 1 handed. In any case as shown in his training Savage's TK <<<<< Dooku's TK.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not to mention that we see Savage's raw TK power surpassing Dooku's in their Season 3 battle...

I don't think he surpassed him. He choked Dooku while he was fighting Ventress. Got him by surprise. Afetr that Dooku was probably weakened a bit by the choke.

In any case his Jedi Craft feat was long before his rage boost, and before his rage boost he outright states Dooku is "too powerful for him."

So it's irrelevant to bring up.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
6. No. He's done that AFTER 30-40 seconds of battle, and caught his opponent off guard, and THEN flicked his wrist. I'm doubtful he could just take on 5 Kenobi's and toss them all away by repeatedly flicking his wrist. I really am.

And I'm very very doubtful that Mace would put Sidious on his ass in a rematch.

See how that works.

Fact is Dooku completely humiliated Kenobi while simultaneously putting Skywalker on his ass slamming him half way across the room.

He was fighting 2 damn opponents. There's absolutely no excuse for THEM to be the ones to be caught off guard.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
7. Yoda's opinion on the subject. Dooku was indeed the best scholar of the order. Not necessarily the best combatant, however.

And you don't think Yoda knows both Mace and Dooku very well? You don't think Yoda's opinion is a damn good one when concerning the best student of the Jedi in the past few hundred years??

He said strongest student. And most learned. Clearly he was talking about most capable.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
9. Speculative? It's clearly shown in Shatterpoint and the ROTS novelization. It's very clearly shown to be more then speculative.

Where in Shatterpoint does it say Vapaad reflects the dark side back on to an opponent?

Sora Bulq used Vapaad. Clearly he didn't deflect the dark side back on Dooku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
10. Dooku faced off with Bulq prior to his turn to the Dark Side, and as Nick Gillard said, embracing the Dark Side allows you to jump up to the next tier of combatants. So it's quite evident that Bulq had gained a lot between his battles with Dooku and Windu respectively.

It's not evident at all that Dark Side Bulq was considerably more powerful than Light Side Dooku. Especially when Vapaad uses the darkness in it's user anyway, but turns it into a weapon of light.

And he was still Dooku's apprentice even as a Dark Sider.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace dealt with Ventress better than Dooku did.She retreated in but two panels,

Mace got staggered by her in one panel when she switched to a Saber Staff.

Dooku has never been staggered by Ventress. Dooku put Ventress on the floor by lifting a finger once.

And it was more than 2 panels.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
while Ventress was able to hold Dooku off for a good 30 seconds in Season 3 in the 1 on 1 battle.

LOL Yeah after he just fought both her and Savage for an extended period.

And btw that actually was a much more powerful Ventress than the one Mace fought. As evidenced in the beginning of that Arc with Sidious ordering her death because she had "grown too powerful."

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In LoE Grievous's work against Mace was all circumstantial. Mace has to use his power to keep himself from flying from the train, and was caught off guard by Grievous's usage of Vaapad. And even then, it was only a short battle, ended with a simple Force Push. And in CW he defeated Grievous in seconds.

There are circumstances to all fight. Including Mace vs Sidious.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku needed an ally greater than Darth Maul to compete with Sidious.

Firstly he didn't say he wanted someone greater than Darth Maul. Just Darth Maul level. And he was referring to TPM Maul!

He was confident that with someone of TPM Maul's level he could overpower Sidious in an all out.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
According to George Lucas, and their battle, Mace alone could compete with Sidious.

He won the Saber battle but was losing when Sidious began using the Force. Dooku only knew he would lose to Sidious in an all out. So this Mace vs Sidious comparison is stupid. Espeically when Dooku has never even fought Sidious.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace has been described as being faster, stronger, more verstile, and more gifted than Dooku.

No he hasn't LOL. Either quote sources or don't bring BS here.

In fact you admitted yourself it was Dooku who was described as more gifted.

All the descriptions put Dooku =/> Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He said Kenobi and Skywalker were equals. That's in the making of ROTS. I've already posted that to you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Gillard wasn't the reason I brought it up here. Here I brought it up to show that if Skywalker's performance was hindered by his inner conflict, it doesn't matter because Kenobi was also conflicted in that fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also that same quote you gave says Skywalker attacks were getting more ferocious through the fight. Sounds Similar to how they were against Count Dooku.

Are you trying to bait me Galan ARE YOu!!! lol

Not at all. Tbh I'm so sick of this argument that it's ridiculous.

I am as well.. hence why I was laughing and didn't even get into it again. :thumbs up;

"Yoda could not beat Sidious"? I would say the battle shows them being evenly matched. If Sidious is Yoda's superior, then the difference is slim. And the old Star Wars databank stated that Mace and Yoda were on par, in fact it still says that on the Jedi Order page. So it's not unreasonable to assume Mace was on par with Sidious himself, especially considering Vaapad's loop sending Sidious's power back at his face. I fully realize that Sidious is Mace's superior.

However, their battle was a lot closer than Dooku's fight with Anakin, and I really don't see Anakin being more powerful than Sidious.

I am also aware that I am using A>B>C logic, which can't be used in an exact scale of things, however, it provides an estimate that is accurate enough to debate with.

Now, excuse that I called Mace 'more gifted' than Dooku. It certainly is the other way around. I was referring more to the fact that Mace had the rare ability of Shatterpoint which would come in handy in this battle.

In Shatterpoint, IIRC it has the superconducting loop in the battle with Depa and Mace.

And in a battle of raw TK strength, I don't see how Dooku is superior to Savage, as Savage was seemingly able to hurl Anakin/Obi across a room, and then demonstrate an extraordinarily powerful Force Repulse. Nevertheless, Dooku is superior with TK by far, but not in raw power IMHO.

Mace's saberbattle with Sidious was 1:50.

Where on God's green earth is it even implied let alone shown that Sidious is Yoda's superior? If anyting, the fight showed the EXACT opposite.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Where on God's green earth is it even implied let alone shown that Sidious is Yoda's superior? If anyting, the fight showed the EXACT opposite.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Where on God's green earth is it even implied let alone shown that Sidious is Yoda's superior? If anyting, the fight showed the EXACT opposite.

Originally posted by Vensai
Yoda was forced to retreat, first of all. ROTS novel and a star wars encyclopedia both outright said that Sidious won as well.

also: "could not defeat" =/= "was defeated"

I find the reliance on A>B>C arguments in this thread repulsive and unhelpful. Likewise, the unsubstantiated comparisons between the physical strength of Windu and that of Skywalker, or the level of fatigue suffered by Dooku post-duel with the Attack of the Clone incarnations of Kenobi and Skywalker, or, especially, the skill of the Magnaguards on Boz Pity, amount to nothing more than subjective conjecture.

Gentlemen, the Count wins, and the following is a brief, but informed, analysis as to why.

First of all, the Count’s age is no barrier in the context of physical frailty. The Revenge of the Sith novel states: “[...] drawing once more from the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.” Furthermore, Dark Rendezvous described Dooku in the following terms: “Physically, the Count’s age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force – unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago – he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, sense keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold.”

Clearly, age itself is no factor.

However it must be noted that despite the aforementioned “superb physical shape,” Dooku’s Form II doesn’t generate kinetic energy in the same way other styles do. Again, the Revenge of the Sith novelisation provides some guidance: “His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head”. This does not, however, mean that Makashi, nor the master of Makashi, will lose against any and every practicioner of Djem So, nor any other physically dominating form. Makashi relies on parries and thrusts, which means it doesn’t have to match the opponent's brute strength. Anakin, however, had a level of brute strength, speed and rage that the author of the RotS novel went to great pains to emphasise. It was clearly described in such a way to give weight to his ‘chosen one’ level of power, and as such exceeds the capabilities of Mace Windu. It is no argument, then, to claim that because Dooku lost to the sheer strength of Anakin, he too would lose to the sheer strength of Windu. In any event, Vaapad is recognised more for its speed than its strength: “With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.”

Brute strength of forms, then, is not a factor either.

But Dooku has to contend with a rather more pressing problem: the superconducting nature of Vaapad. It would be doing the Star Wars canon an injustice if one was to consider Form VII a deus ex machina provided for an instant victory against every dark side practitioner it was pitted against. Nevertheless, it is still immensely powerful and effective, allowing Mace to come to what is described as an “impasse” against Darth Sidious.

But that is exactly the point I wish to emphasise. Vaapad forces an impasse. A stalemate. A draw. Vaapad nullifies the power a Sith can derive from the dark side. It does not, in and of itself, provide an advantage.

The power Count Dooku derives from the dark side, therefore, is obsolete. Vaapad puts them back on equal footing as far as the benefit derived from the dark side is concerned. Rage, hate and anger – all hallmarks of the darkside – are as much a benefit to Mace as they are to Dooku. So a duel will rely almost exclusively on prowess with the lightsaber.

Now this is where things get interesting! There is authority for the notion that they are at the very least equal, or, alternatively, that Count Dooku is superior. No authority (as far as I am aware, although I certainly not omniscient) exists to suggest that Mace is more skilled.

I refer first to exhibit A: the following extract from Dark Rendezvous:

“’Hm.’ Yoda stirred again with his stick. ‘Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?’ He nodded. ‘Best of all, Dooku would be!’ His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. ‘Our great student!’ Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. ‘Our great failure.’”

Now, I will begin by conceding that the above quote is from Yoda, not the narrator, and can therefore be exposed to bias and hyperbole. But I struggle to see how either can be in play, given the context. Those present – Mace included – were having a conversation about who would be the best person to go into battle with. Yoda, of all the characters in the Star Wars universe, is in the best placed to indicate who the most proficient student of the Jedi Order is. He chose Dooku, despite Mace being right there beside him.

Then we have exhibit B, again from Dark Rendezvous:

“Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.”

The emphasis is very much my own addition, and very much necessary. The omniscient narrator is quite clearly saying that Mace Windu only has a chance at being equal to Count Dooku. Irrefutable evidence for those of you with a foul Windu fetish that, at best, Windu is equal, at worst, Dooku is better.

Then we come to exhibit C: the duel on Boz Pity.

http://i45.tinypic.com/xu8ut.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2151175-new_picture__14_.jpg

I fail to see how this can be authority for Windu’s superiority. For starters, Mace didn’t win – although things are clearly more nuanced than that. Yes, Dooku employed the use of his Magnaguards, but this hardly means he is inferior or thought he was going to lose. I proffer two reasons for this: (1) Dooku is a Sith, and one who [almost uniquely, given his arrogance] values his own life and well being above all else. Dooku was well aware that, should the duel continue, reinforcements for Windu would have arrived, and as such he would have been captured or killed. A continuation of the duel would therefore have been pointless, and Dooku utilised his Magnaguards to enable a hasty escape. This leads to the next point, (2) Dooku had everything to lose from this duel, whereas Windu had everything to gain. There would have been almost no material benefit if Dooku had defeated and killed Windu, apart from the fact the Jedi Order would have lost one of its highest ranking members. But this is rather unnecessary in Dooku’s master plan. On the other hand, if Mace had managed to kill the Count, he would have dealt a crippling blow to the Confederacy of Independant Systems and their war effort (despite, I would contend, Dooku’s protests in the duel to the contrary).

So, all in all, the duel of Boz Pity tells us nothing of value.

But, overall, the authorities clearly seem to favour the Count. I personally believe, for the reasons above stated, it would come to a pure saber duel. Dooku’s technical mastery in the lightsaber to lightsaber form would ensure victory. As Qui-Gon once said, “He is a fencer. Leverage, position, advantage-they are as natural to him as breathing.”

As a final side note, I consider it an absolute fallacy to say that, because Darth Sidious lost to Mace, Darth Tyrnaus would too. It would be doing a disservice to your intelligence to argue with such A>B>C logic. In any event, great aspersions can be cast on that particular logic in regards to that particular duel, based on the notion that it is entirely arguable that Darth Sidious threw the duel in order to turn young Skywalker to the dark side. In regards to that A>B>C line of argument, I would like to quote one Count of Serenno: “Surely you can do better!”

Originally posted by Rampant ox

As a final side note, I consider it an absolute fallacy to say that, because Darth Sidious lost to Mace, Darth Tyrnaus would too. It would be doing a disservice to your intelligence to argue with such A>B>C logic.[/i]

👆

It's not like A>B>C exactly worked in ROTS anyway:

1)Anakin > Dooku >>> Kenobi = Anakin.

2) The 2nd most powerful Jedi defeated Sidious but the most powerful Jedi lost to him (or at best stalemated).

Not to mention there's a decent chance Sidious could have defeated Mace once he started with his FL attack.

^ The most powerful Jedi didn't have Vaapad or Shatterpoint, though.

Mace would've been stomped had he been in Yoda's position in the Senate Chamber.

Originally posted by Vensai
Yoda was forced to retreat, first of all. ROTS novel and a star wars encyclopedia both outright said that Sidious won as well.

This is utterly ridiculous and you're better than this Vensai. Saying yoda couldn't defeat Sids... DOESN'T mean sids was his superior. He just failed at killing him and getting the task done that he set out doing. However, that was also due to circumstances... Yoda had fallen from his position.. Not due to the emperor outthinking him.. or besting him in anyway.. but due to the cicumstances of his position. Once fallen... he realized and could probably sense help was on the way.. and knew he had missed his chance to kill the emperor. However, that doesn't mean Sids was his superior.. That is just outright stupid. If anything, the fight showed that Yoda had the advantage.. not the other way around.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Mace would've been stomped had he been in Yoda's position in the Senate Chamber.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I find the reliance on A>B>C arguments in this thread repulsive and unhelpful. Likewise, the unsubstantiated comparisons between the physical strength of Windu and that of Skywalker, or the level of fatigue suffered by Dooku post-duel with the Attack of the Clone incarnations of Kenobi and Skywalker, or, especially, the skill of the Magnaguards on Boz Pity, amount to nothing more than subjective conjecture.

Gentlemen, the Count wins, and the following is a brief, but informed, analysis as to why.

First of all, the Count’s age is no barrier in the context of physical frailty. The Revenge of the Sith novel states: “[...] drawing once more from the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.” Furthermore, Dark Rendezvous described Dooku in the following terms: “Physically, the Count’s age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force – unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago – he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, sense keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold.”

Clearly, age itself is no factor.

However it must be noted that despite the aforementioned “superb physical shape,” Dooku’s Form II doesn’t generate kinetic energy in the same way other styles do. Again, the Revenge of the Sith novelisation provides some guidance: “His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head”. This does not, however, mean that Makashi, nor the master of Makashi, will lose against any and every practicioner of Djem So, nor any other physically dominating form. Makashi relies on parries and thrusts, which means it doesn’t have to match the opponent's brute strength. Anakin, however, had a level of brute strength, speed and rage that the author of the RotS novel went to great pains to emphasise. It was clearly described in such a way to give weight to his ‘chosen one’ level of power, and as such exceeds the capabilities of Mace Windu. It is no argument, then, to claim that because Dooku lost to the sheer strength of Anakin, he too would lose to the sheer strength of Windu. In any event, Vaapad is recognised more for its speed than its strength: “With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.”

Brute strength of forms, then, is not a factor either.

But Dooku has to contend with a rather more pressing problem: the superconducting nature of Vaapad. It would be doing the Star Wars canon an injustice if one was to consider Form VII a deus ex machina provided for an instant victory against every dark side practitioner it was pitted against. Nevertheless, it is still immensely powerful and effective, allowing Mace to come to what is described as an “impasse” against Darth Sidious.

But that is exactly the point I wish to emphasise. Vaapad forces an impasse. A stalemate. A draw. Vaapad nullifies the power a Sith can derive from the dark side. It does not, in and of itself, provide an advantage.

The power Count Dooku derives from the dark side, therefore, is obsolete. Vaapad puts them back on equal footing as far as the [b]benefit derived from the dark side is concerned. Rage, hate and anger – all hallmarks of the darkside – are as much a benefit to Mace as they are to Dooku. So a duel will rely almost exclusively on prowess with the lightsaber.

Now this is where things get interesting! There is authority for the notion that they are at the very least equal, or, alternatively, that Count Dooku is superior. No authority (as far as I am aware, although I certainly not omniscient) exists to suggest that Mace is more skilled.

I refer first to exhibit A: the following extract from Dark Rendezvous:

“’Hm.’ Yoda stirred again with his stick. ‘Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?’ He nodded. ‘Best of all, Dooku would be!’ His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. ‘Our great student!’ Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. ‘Our great failure.’”

Now, I will begin by conceding that the above quote is from Yoda, not the narrator, and can therefore be exposed to bias and hyperbole. But I struggle to see how either can be in play, given the context. Those present – Mace included – were having a conversation about who would be the best person to go into battle with. Yoda, of all the characters in the Star Wars universe, is in the best placed to indicate who the most proficient student of the Jedi Order is. He chose Dooku, despite Mace being right there beside him.

Then we have exhibit B, again from Dark Rendezvous:

“Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.”

The emphasis is very much my own addition, and very much necessary. The omniscient narrator is quite clearly saying that Mace Windu only has a chance at being equal to Count Dooku. Irrefutable evidence for those of you with a foul Windu fetish that, at best, Windu is equal, at worst, Dooku is better.

Then we come to exhibit C: the duel on Boz Pity.

http://i45.tinypic.com/xu8ut.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2151175-new_picture__14_.jpg

I fail to see how this can be authority for Windu’s superiority. For starters, Mace didn’t win – although things are clearly more nuanced than that. Yes, Dooku employed the use of his Magnaguards, but this hardly means he is inferior or thought he was going to lose. I proffer two reasons for this: (1) Dooku is a Sith, and one who [almost uniquely, given his arrogance] values his own life and well being above all else. Dooku was well aware that, should the duel continue, reinforcements for Windu would have arrived, and as such he would have been captured or killed. A continuation of the duel would therefore have been pointless, and Dooku utilised his Magnaguards to enable a hasty escape. This leads to the next point, (2) Dooku had everything to lose from this duel, whereas Windu had everything to gain. There would have been almost no material benefit if Dooku had defeated and killed Windu, apart from the fact the Jedi Order would have lost one of its highest ranking members. But this is rather unnecessary in Dooku’s master plan. On the other hand, if Mace had managed to kill the Count, he would have dealt a crippling blow to the Confederacy of Independant Systems and their war effort (despite, I would contend, Dooku’s protests in the duel to the contrary).

So, all in all, the duel of Boz Pity tells us nothing of value.

But, overall, the authorities clearly seem to favour the Count. I personally believe, for the reasons above stated, it would come to a pure saber duel. Dooku’s technical mastery in the lightsaber to lightsaber form would ensure victory. As Qui-Gon once said, “He is a fencer. Leverage, position, advantage-they are as natural to him as breathing.”

As a final side note, I consider it an absolute fallacy to say that, because Darth Sidious lost to Mace, Darth Tyrnaus would too. It would be doing a disservice to your intelligence to argue with such A>B>C logic. In any event, great aspersions can be cast on that particular logic in regards to that particular duel, based on the notion that it is entirely arguable that Darth Sidious threw the duel in order to turn young Skywalker to the dark side. In regards to that A>B>C line of argument, I would like to quote one Count of Serenno: “Surely you can do better!” [/B]

All this and little to no substance AT ALL. All you have is some hyperbole and NOTHING MORE. You want to consider ABC logic laughable and carrying little weight.. Now image how we view your long winded post that is littered with nothing but a few hyperbolic statements to back up your stance. This forum is based on FEATS!!! So, ask yourself this, who has the better battle feats one v one? The answer is unquestionably Windu. So right there you lose the argument as feats > hyperbole. Windu beats somebody that is Dooku's superior. Somebody Dooku dared not challenge. Yet, you expect me to win because.. wait for it.. wait for it... A line saying Windu could only stalemate him? Did you expect us to take you serious with that post of yours? The fact is Windu beat the better oppostion and has a trump card against Dooku. A trump card that makes it almost impossible for him to win.. Vaapad.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ The most powerful Jedi didn't have Vaapad or Shatterpoint, though.

The most powerful Jedi did all what Mace did and more.

Mace disarmed Sidious-->Yoda disarmed Sidious
Mace blocked Sidious' lightning and was about to eat lightsaber.
Yoda blocked Sidious's lightning and redirected it.

Yoda however was able to redirect his lightning later, barehanded.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The most powerful Jedi did all what Mace did and more.

Mace disarmed Sidious-->Yoda disarmed Sidious
Mace blocked Sidious' lightning and was about to eat lightsaber.
Yoda blocked Sidious's lightning and redirected it.

Yoda however was able to redirect his lightning later, barehanded.

So no, Yoda did not do "what Mace did and more." He never came so close to ultimate victory.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All this and little to no substance AT ALL. All you have is some hyperbole and NOTHING MORE. You want to consider ABC logic laughable and carrying little weight.. Now image how we view your long winded post that is littered with nothing but a few hyperbolic statements to back up your stance. This forum is based on FEATS!!! So, ask yourself this, who has the better battle feats one v one? The answer is unquestionably Windu. So right there you lose the argument as feats > hyperbole. Windu beats somebody that is Dooku's superior. Somebody Dooku dared not challenge. Yet, you expect me to win because.. wait for it.. wait for it... A line saying Windu could only stalemate him? Did you expect us to take you serious with that post of yours? The fact is Windu beat the better oppostion and has a trump card against Dooku. A trump card that makes it almost impossible for him to win.. Vaapad.

Such eloquence! Such articulate arguments, backed by irrefutable A>B>C logic - logic which we all know is infallible! I apologise for consulting quotes and canon; in the future I will follow your glorious lead and apply hollow platitudes and sweeping yet unsubstantiated dismissals!

God, if you're any indication of the calibre of debater left on these boards, then they really have gone to the dogs.