^ That fight/game is actually an off shoot of the T-Canon show.
Anyway between that and their duel in Obsession it's clear Mace isn't above Dooku by any kind of significant margin.
Add in all the Eu statements and their fights against the same opponents, then it would seem Mace is "At Best" Dooku's equal.
I'm convinced you're a moron now... You can't grasp basic logic and reason, and to make things worse, have a reading comprehension issue. That is truly a terrible combo. Did you say you're in Law School? LOL. Which Law school would that be? While I don't believe you would make the cut at my firm.. but amuse me anyways with your school.
Now, your first problem was your reading comprenesion problem. At NO Point was I arguing which canon is higher and thus the better evidence. Please point to any place I even alluded to that. What I've said MULTIPLE time you dolt, is that FEATS are greater than narration. Spiderman actually beating Sabertooth is better evidence, than somebody referencing narration about Spiderman and how powerful he is. How the F you can't grasp such a basic concept like this is concerning. Well not just concerning to you but concerning to your school on how the F they even let you in. Jesus H. Christ.. Answer this siple question... WHICH is better evidence... combat feats or narration about somebody?
The boxing example I sued was pretty straight forward. Obviously you don't watch boxing, but why would you need to in order to grasp the simple premise. Somebody presenting various fights of whitaker fighting people like Money May and how well he did against that kinda fighter... while somebody else presenting interviews from other fighters about Money May... how can you not see which is the better evidence? Narration and verbal narration can never count for as much as actual fights...or in this case star wars battles. That is exactly what you've done here, and the fact that you even try and claim it's as good as what I presented is laughable. I presented an ACTUAL life or death fight.. with somebody that is Dooku's superior... You presented narration about Dooku and how good he is. Yet you think yours is better? Damn you're dumb, and you should immediatly stop practicing law. You have no clue what evidence carries more weight in the star wars universe.. how the f are you going to do any better in the real world?
Do you know why ABC logic fails sometimes? It's not because vs fights don't show anything important. It's actually the exact opposite, it's the best form of evidence. The problem lies when you try and compate somebody better somebody else, with totally different powers than the person he is matched up against now. For example, if I cited Spiderman beating Sabertooth as evidence for him beating the Green Goblin.. or Doc Oct... That is when ABC logic would fail. Sabertooth doesn't have the same powerset as The G.G. or Doc. Oct. Here however, Sids powers and Dooku's powerset aren't worlds apart.. in fact, they are near identical.. only difference is Sids is simple more powerful than Dooku. Hopefully now, this is clearing up your misconception about ABC logic and when it fails and when it doesn't. So in the case.. it doesn't fail at all because they are almost identical.. they have near identical powersets and are from the same order. The example is sound.
Now onto your examples of ABC logic failing, but of course, your examples are easy to crush.
Dooku > Kenobi > Anakin . The first reason this fails is because the reason dooku owns kenobi is because of his offensive TK ability and Kenobi's lack of TK defense. In a strictly sabers only battle.. Dooku would have a very hard time beating Kenobi, In fact, he's never done so, and the only time he's gained any advantage was via TK. Anakin o nthe otherhand has supeiror TK defense as we've witnessed throughout the clone wars. So Dooku can't own him as easily as he can Kenobi, and thus, it will be a more difficult fight. Couple that with Dooku style being weak 2 strong aggressive strikes i.e. anakin's style.. again we can see how Anakin can compete with dooku in sabers.. but Kenobi's style would tax dooku like Anakin's would. To go further, the only time Anakin beat Dooku.. it was referenced by Gillard.. that Dooku took Anakin lightly... We must alos remember that Dooku was stated via canon narration to be tiring because of takign on Anakin and Kenobi at the same time. These are possible reasons why Anakin was able to beat Dooku but couldn't kenobi.. which again.. as we know has a mental edge on anakin that he doesn't enjoy on Dooku. So styles make figts whic his why your <> example doesn't hold water. Next...
Yoda > Mace > Sids .. Actually this very WELL could mean Yoda could beat Sids.. In fact, that is almost exactly what transpired. YOda didn't win the battle.. but winning was only based on killing Sids. He was clearly via the movie and script getting the better of Sids. Like Mace.. he disarmed Sids in sabers just like Mace did. To even suggest yoda couldn't beat Sids is downright laughable. The greatest foe the Darkside has ever known can certainly beat Sids. Shit even sids knew that... which examples why he tried to flee when confronted by YOda... If so powerful you are.. why leave? he tried to leave then.. and then left again once Yoda had fallen. Certainly doesn't appear like he had the confidence you did in his victory all the time. Further, at the end of their battle... yoda was literally overpowering Sids lighting back at him and Sida was clearly going to lose that struggle. Yoda buckled down and Sids was getting owned. Yet another failed example on your part. Next...
Luke > Vader ? Sids... Another horrific example.. Firstly, Vader was holding back against Luke.. so Luke being greater is your first failure. Luke only got the drop on a holding back Vader when he gave into the darkside. Which by default, isn't something he would normally do in his ROTJ incarnation. Again though, it was a holding back Vader regardless. Next, an even worse example of Vader greater than Sids.. why.. because the threw him down the well... WTF... No that is a terrible example. he took a distracted Sids and jumped him from behind and threw him.. but for his troubles got the ****ed shocked out of him and ends up dying. That is your example of Vader being greater than Sids? Jesus, no need to continue that one as you even weren't being serious yourself.
It's not flawed logic because as I pointed out.. it's only flawed when powersets are totally different and thus not the same fight. Or if somebody had a mentality they might not normally have.. and thus you try and use that one time as how they would fight all the time. The facts are these...
1. Dooku and Sids have a very similiar powerset.. near identical. With the only difference being that Dooku is Sids inferior in virtually every way. Not that their powers are different but that the strength of their powers are different. This is how ABC doesn't fail.. because in order for you to prove it doesn't work.. you woudl then have to show dooku to be a totally different fighter than Sids and would offer Mace something that Sids couldn't. This just isn't true, and what's worse, you haven't provided ANY evidence that support such a claim. So if you want to present such a case.. do so.. but until you do.. the ABC logic here is perfectly sound and reasonaable.
2. Mace overpowered somebody in sabers that is Doou's superior. Unless of course you're claiming that Dooku's saber ability is greater than Sids. In which case you need to prove this point. Mace took and redirected. sids lighting back at him as well as resisting his TK push. So Mace overcame Sids force powers as well. Now, are you claiming Dooku's lighting and TK is above Sids... Well then do so. If not, Sids powers are just as great, and likely greater than Dooku's, and thus mace overcoming Sids force powers would me he likely would Dooku's as well.
Lastly, I haven't relied SOELY on Mace beating Sids as the reason for him winning here. If you actually read the thread.. the thing I relied on more than ANYTHING else is Mace Vaapad being the deciding Factor. Dooku is a Darksider and thus Mace would constantly empowered by Dooku's DS powers. To make ti worse for Dooku... Vaapad would for example, let's say Mace is slower in sabers than Dooku (not true but let's say), Vaapad would increase Mace speed to equal that of Dooku's. So Dooku would thus hold no advantages over Mace. What does this mean... best case scenerio for Dooku... It makes Mace his equal and it would be a constant stalemate. That is best case. However, that is forgetting Shatterpoint.. which would be the deciding factor. Even if Vaapad only made Mace and Dooku equals.. Shatterpoint would eventually be found for Dooku and he would be killed.Again though, it would just make him Dooku's equal Vaapad would make him his superior and his stamina would be well beyond Dooku's as he's constantly empowered by Dooku while dooku is losing force reserves as the fight continues. More than ANYTHING else this is what I've relied upon on why mace wins. His feat of beating Sids is jus thte best combat feat he has.. and thus what will be referenced when talking about his feats. In case you forgot, combat feats are greater than narration. Hopefully you don't come back with another reading comprehension failure and go.. I get that G cannon is above T canon.. WTF.. that isn't even what I'm talking about. I'm saying actual fights and how they did.. counts fo rmore than talking about what somebody is capable of. Hopefully this doesn't allude you for a THIRD time.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm convinced you're a moron now... You can't grasp basic logic and reason, and to make things worse, have a reading comprehension issue. That is truly a terrible combo. Did you say you're in Law School? LOL. Which Law school would that be? While I don't believe you would make the cut at my firm.. but amuse me anyways with your school.Now, your first problem was your reading comprenesion problem. At NO Point was I arguing which canon is higher and thus the better evidence. Please point to any place I even alluded to that. What I've said MULTIPLE time you dolt, is that FEATS are greater than narration. Spiderman actually beating Sabertooth is better evidence, than somebody referencing narration about Spiderman and how powerful he is. How the F you can't grasp such a basic concept like this is concerning. Well not just concerning to you but concerning to your school on how the F they even let you in. Jesus H. Christ.. Answer this siple question... WHICH is better evidence... combat feats or narration about somebody?
The boxing example I sued was pretty straight forward. Obviously you don't watch boxing, but why would you need to in order to grasp the simple premise. Somebody presenting various fights of whitaker fighting people like Money May and how well he did against that kinda fighter... while somebody else presenting interviews from other fighters about Money May... how can you not see which is the better evidence? Narration and verbal narration can never count for as much as actual fights...or in this case star wars battles. That is exactly what you've done here, and the fact that you even try and claim it's as good as what I presented is laughable. I presented an ACTUAL life or death fight.. with somebody that is Dooku's superior... You presented narration about Dooku and how good he is. Yet you think yours is better? Damn you're dumb, and you should immediatly stop practicing law. You have no clue what evidence carries more weight in the star wars universe.. how the f are you going to do any better in the real world?
Do you know why ABC logic fails sometimes? It's not because vs fights don't show anything important. It's actually the exact opposite, it's the best form of evidence. The problem lies when you try and compate somebody better somebody else, with totally different powers than the person he is matched up against now. For example, if I cited Spiderman beating Sabertooth as evidence for him beating the Green Goblin.. or Doc Oct... That is when ABC logic would fail. Sabertooth doesn't have the same powerset as The G.G. or Doc. Oct. Here however, Sids powers and Dooku's powerset aren't worlds apart.. in fact, they are near identical.. only difference is Sids is simple more powerful than Dooku. Hopefully now, this is clearing up your misconception about ABC logic and when it fails and when it doesn't. So in the case.. it doesn't fail at all because they are almost identical.. they have near identical powersets and are from the same order. The example is sound.
Now onto your examples of ABC logic failing, but of course, your examples are easy to crush.
Dooku > Kenobi > Anakin . The first reason this fails is because the reason dooku owns kenobi is because of his offensive TK ability and Kenobi's lack of TK defense. In a strictly sabers only battle.. Dooku would have a very hard time beating Kenobi, In fact, he's never done so, and the only time he's gained any advantage was via TK. Anakin o nthe otherhand has supeiror TK defense as we've witnessed throughout the clone wars. So Dooku can't own him as easily as he can Kenobi, and thus, it will be a more difficult fight. Couple that with Dooku style being weak 2 strong aggressive strikes i.e. anakin's style.. again we can see how Anakin can compete with dooku in sabers.. but Kenobi's style would tax dooku like Anakin's would. To go further, the only time Anakin beat Dooku.. it was referenced by Gillard.. that Dooku took Anakin lightly... We must alos remember that Dooku was stated via canon narration to be tiring because of takign on Anakin and Kenobi at the same time. These are possible reasons why Anakin was able to beat Dooku but couldn't kenobi.. which again.. as we know has a mental edge on anakin that he doesn't enjoy on Dooku. So styles make figts whic his why your <> example doesn't hold water. Next...
Yoda > Mace > Sids .. Actually this very WELL could mean Yoda could beat Sids.. In fact, that is almost exactly what transpired. YOda didn't win the battle.. but winning was only based on killing Sids. He was clearly via the movie and script getting the better of Sids. Like Mace.. he disarmed Sids in sabers just like Mace did. To even suggest yoda couldn't beat Sids is downright laughable. The greatest foe the Darkside has ever known can certainly beat Sids. Shit even sids knew that... which examples why he tried to flee when confronted by YOda... If so powerful you are.. why leave? he tried to leave then.. and then left again once Yoda had fallen. Certainly doesn't appear like he had the confidence you did in his victory all the time. Further, at the end of their battle... yoda was literally overpowering Sids lighting back at him and Sida was clearly going to lose that struggle. Yoda buckled down and Sids was getting owned. Yet another failed example on your part. Next...
Luke > Vader ? Sids... Another horrific example.. Firstly, Vader was holding back against Luke.. so Luke being greater is your first failure. Luke only got the drop on a holding back Vader when he gave into the darkside. Which by default, isn't something he would normally do in his ROTJ incarnation. Again though, it was a holding back Vader regardless. Next, an even worse example of Vader greater than Sids.. why.. because the threw him down the well... WTF... No that is a terrible example. he took a distracted Sids and jumped him from behind and threw him.. but for his troubles got the ****ed shocked out of him and ends up dying. That is your example of Vader being greater than Sids? Jesus, no need to continue that one as you even weren't being serious yourself.
It's not flawed logic because as I pointed out.. it's only flawed when powersets are totally different and thus not the same fight. Or if somebody had a mentality they might not normally have.. and thus you try and use that one time as how they would fight all the time. The facts are these...
1. Dooku and Sids have a very similiar powerset.. near identical. With the only difference being that Dooku is Sids inferior in virtually every way. Not that their powers are different but that the strength of their powers are different. This is how ABC doesn't fail.. because in order for you to prove it doesn't work.. you woudl then have to show dooku to be a totally different fighter than Sids and would offer Mace something that Sids couldn't. This just isn't true, and what's worse, you haven't provided ANY evidence that support such a claim. So if you want to present such a case.. do so.. but until you do.. the ABC logic here is perfectly sound and reasonaable.
2. Mace overpowered somebody in sabers that is Doou's superior. Unless of course you're claiming that Dooku's saber ability is greater than Sids. In which case you need to prove this point. Mace took and redirected. sids lighting back at him as well as resisting his TK push. So Mace overcame Sids force powers as well. Now, are you claiming Dooku's lighting and TK is above Sids... Well then do so. If not, Sids powers are just as great, and likely greater than Dooku's, and thus mace overcoming Sids force powers would me he likely would Dooku's as well.
Lastly, I haven't relied SOELY on Mace beating Sids as the reason for him winning here. If you actually read the thread.. the thing I relied on more than ANYTHING else is Mace Vaapad being the deciding Factor. Dooku is a Darksider and thus Mace would constantly empowered by Dooku's DS powers. To make ti worse for Dooku... Vaapad would for example, let's say Mace is slower in sabers than Dooku (not true but let's say), Vaapad would increase Mace speed to equal that of Dooku's. So Dooku would thus hold no advantages over Mace. What does this mean... best case scenerio for Dooku... It makes Mace his equal and it would be a constant stalemate. That is best case. However, that is forgetting Shatterpoint.. which would be the deciding factor. Even if Vaapad only made Mace and Dooku equals.. Shatterpoint would eventually be found for Dooku and he would be killed.Again though, it would just make him Dooku's equal Vaapad would make him his superior and his stamina would be well beyond Dooku's as he's constantly empowered by Dooku while dooku is losing force reserves as the fight continues. More than ANYTHING else this is what I've relied upon on why mace wins. His feat of beating Sids is jus thte best combat feat he has.. and thus what will be referenced when talking about his feats. In case you forgot, combat feats are greater than narration. Hopefully you don't come back with another reading comprehension failure and go.. I get that G cannon is above T canon.. WTF.. that isn't even what I'm talking about. I'm saying actual fights and how they did.. counts fo rmore than talking about what somebody is capable of. Hopefully this doesn't allude you for a THIRD time.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's safe to assume Dooku is roughly on par with Sidious in swordplay as well.
Actually, Dooku has done nothing to suggest that he is on par with Sidious in swordplay. Dooku has never blitzed jedi masters in seconds, nor has he done anything to suggest that he could. AOTC Kenobi, who was definitely inferior to Fisto at the time, gave Dooku a better challenge than Fisto gave Sidious, despite the fact that it was a one on one match between him and Dooku, whereas Sidious had two other jedi to take out before similtaneously crossing blades with Kit and Mace. Also, when we compare Dooku's performance against Ventress and Savage to Sidious' performance against Maul and Savage, Dooku struggled far more against his duo and had to rely on heavy force usage, whereas Sidious was relaxed when fighting Maul and Savage and wasn't even trying to kill Maul.
Most of the feats/quotes that suggest Dooku and Windu are on par, were before Mace's battle with Sidious. So I'd say it's safer to assume that Mace was fighting at a level that he had never before (kinda how Anakin was when he owned Dooku in ROTS), given that even Mace has even struggled against equal/inferior opponents to the three masters that Sidious blitzed in seconds. The ROTS novel seems to suggest that Windu recieved a special amp during his fight with Sidious due to the nature of vaapad which allowed him to draw on Sidious own darkness in order to match Sidious in speed, which wasn't until after Sidious slaughtered his three jedi companions and forced him into the chancellor's office.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku has never blitzed jedi masters in seconds, nor has he done anything to suggest that he could.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
AOTC Kenobi, who was definitely inferior to Fisto at the time, gave Dooku a better challenge than Fisto gave Sidious, despite the fact that it was a one on one match between him and Dooku, whereas Sidious had two other jedi to take out before similtaneously crossing blades with Kit and Mace.
Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master.
Further more, Labyrinth of Evil suggests that it was Dooku's intention to fight Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in the hanger on Geonosis;
Once Master and Padawan, Kenobi and Skywalker had become the scourge of Dooku's existence. On Geonosis he had deliberately allowed them to pursue him - - just as Sidious had instructed him to do. Also as instructed, Dooku had made Kenobi aware of the existence of Darth Sidious, as a means of confusing the Jedi Order by telling them the truth.
Labyrinth of Evil again suggests that Dooku did not go all out against Obi-Wan and Anakin;
"Hold Kenobi and Skywalker, Lord Tyranus. Entertain them. Play to their weakness. Demonstrate your mastery, as you have on previous occasions."
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, when we compare Dooku's performance against Ventress and Savage to Sidious' performance against Maul and Savage, Dooku struggled far more against his duo and had to rely on heavy force usage, whereas Sidious was relaxed when fighting Maul and Savage and wasn't even trying to kill Maul.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Most of the feats/quotes that suggest Dooku and Windu are on par, were before Mace's battle with Sidious. So I'd say it's safer to assume that Mace was fighting at a level that he had never before (kinda how Anakin was when he owned Dooku in ROTS), given that even Mace has even struggled against equal/inferior opponents to the three masters that Sidious blitzed in seconds. The ROTS novel seems to suggest that Windu recieved a special amp during his fight with Sidious due to the nature of vaapad which allowed him to draw on Sidious own darkness in order to match Sidious in speed, which wasn't until after Sidious slaughtered his three jedi companions and forced him into the chancellor's office.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious did this due to his incredible speed.
Which is a very important part of saber combat. It's just as important as physical strength and technical skill. Sidious speed in sabers is such that it gives him a huge advantage over most in terms of saber combat.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Attack of the Clones implies that Dooku gave more against Yoda than against Kenobi;
Well obviously he would be forced to. But still, nothing suggests that he could have owned Kenobi as effortlessly as Sidious did Kit and the two other jedi.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Don't choose one of Dooku's low showings. Even then he proved too fast for Savage.
Actually, I've argued in the past that Dooku was likely taken by surprise by Savage's physical strength, and could have probably done better, but nothing suggests that he could have walked all over them with the same amount of ease that Sidious did against Maul and Savage while holding back. Also, Savage was not as trained when he fought Dooku as he was when he fought Sidious.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
As I have pointed out already, I'm not suggesting that Windu is a superior combatant to Sidious; ''Impasse'' (Revenge of the Sith) suggests they are equal. When equals fight each other, they would logically win 5/10 fights each- the one we saw in the movie was only one of the instances in where Mace was able to ''overpower'' Sidious, nothing more.
They were only equal after Mace was fully submerged in vaapad, which required time to match Sidious in sheer speed. Before that, Sidious was able to slaughter two jedi before either Mace or Kit were able to do a thing, and then kill Fisto while similtaneously crossing blades with Windu, and later forcing Windu all the way into the chancellor's office.
Again: Dooku has done absolutely nothing to suggest that he is on par with Sidious in sabers. Sidious is physically stronger and considerably faster based on feats. Just because Dooku has feats/quotes which suggest that he is on par with Windu, does not make him on par with Sidious, considering that those feats/quotes were made before Mace's fight with Sidious, and the fact that Mace was fighting at a level that he had never fought in his life during his battle with Sidious.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which is a very important part of saber combat. It's just as important as physical strength and technical skill. Sidious speed in sabers is such that it gives him a huge advantage over most in terms of saber combat.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well obviously he would be forced to.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But still, nothing suggests that he could have owned Kenobi as effortlessly as Sidious did Kit and the two other jedi.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually, I've argued in the past that Dooku was likely taken by surprise by Savage's physical strength, and could have probably done better, but nothing suggests that he could have walked all over them with the same amount of ease that Sidious did against Maul and Savage while holding back. Also, Savage was not as trained when he fought Dooku as he was when he fought Sidious.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They were only equal after Mace was fully submerged in vaapad, which required time to match Sidious in sheer speed. Before that, Sidious was able to slaughter two jedi before either Mace or Kit were able to do a thing, and then kill Fisto while similtaneously crossing blades with Windu, and later forcing Windu all the way into the chancellor's office.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just because Dooku has feats/quotes which suggest that he is on par with Windu, does not make him on par with Sidious, considering that those feats/quotes were made before Mace's fight with Sidious,
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and the fact that Mace was fighting at a level that he had never fought in his life during his battle with Sidious.
If you've got further replies coming I'll address them in the morning, presumably in eight hours, if that's cool with you.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm convinced you're a moron now... You can't grasp basic logic and reason, and to make things worse, have a reading comprehension issue. That is truly a terrible combo. Did you say you're in Law School? LOL. Which Law school would that be? While I don't believe you would make the cut at my firm.. but amuse me anyways with your school.[etc. No point quoting it all in full, things somehow get worse after the first paragraph]
Lord above. The stupidity is too much. Like I said before, I was not going to reply unless you had something vaguely arguable to present. You do not. What's astounding is that you actually seem to have become more dense the more worked up you have become. Not to mention that your spelling, grammar and prose are disgusting. Utterly disgusting. Please, I will allow you to butcher logic for your own ends, but at least have some respect for the English language.
You rely on A>B>C logic, and, what's worse, equally as dense people seem to agree with you. Appalling. A new low for these boards. No wonder they are as good as dead. I yearn for the old days when there was some real talent here.
You're a lawyer [apparently], so I assume you are familiar with an argument being 'struck out' before it gets to court? It's a mechanism which allows the court to get rid of doomed vexatious claims before they can be litigated. I hate to say it buddy, but your nonsense here would surely be struck out.
Usually at this point I would say stick to your day job, but, given what your day job actually is, I think it would be safer for the public if you didn't. Stick to debating Star Wars instead, it's what you're good at. Well, actually it's not. Awkward.
Concession accepted. But what we've learned is this...
1. You have a severe reading comprehension failure you exhibit numerous times.
2. You feel like narration is greater than Combat feats.. when the rest of the boards laughs at such a notion
3. You have no clue when ABC logic fails and when it can be applied. I'm guessing you heard a few people back in the day scream ABC Logic Fa1lzorz, and go, damn what an awesome argument I'll use in the future.
4. Lastly, I neither implied nor hinted that I'm a lawyer, I only commented on how scary it is that you're in law school and how the requirements must've gone down. I think the pleading you're referencing are Summary Judgment or Summary Adjudication. You can thank me later 😉
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Attack of the Clones implies that Dooku gave more against Yoda than against Kenobi;Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master.
Further more, Labyrinth of Evil suggests that it was Dooku's intention to fight Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in the hanger on Geonosis;
Once Master and Padawan, Kenobi and Skywalker had become the scourge of Dooku's existence. On Geonosis he had deliberately allowed them to pursue him - - just as Sidious had instructed him to do. Also as instructed, Dooku had made Kenobi aware of the existence of Darth Sidious, as a means of confusing the Jedi Order by telling them the truth.
Labyrinth of Evil again suggests that Dooku did not go all out against Obi-Wan and Anakin;
"Hold Kenobi and Skywalker, Lord Tyranus. Entertain them. Play to their weakness. Demonstrate your mastery, as you have on previous occasions."
I'd give this more weight if Dooku didn't very obviously pant from fatigue after dispatching Anakin.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Attack of the Clones implies that Dooku gave more against Yoda than against Kenobi;Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master.
Further more, Labyrinth of Evil suggests that it was Dooku's intention to fight Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in the hanger on Geonosis;
Once Master and Padawan, Kenobi and Skywalker had become the scourge of Dooku's existence. On Geonosis he had deliberately allowed them to pursue him - - just as Sidious had instructed him to do. Also as instructed, Dooku had made Kenobi aware of the existence of Darth Sidious, as a means of confusing the Jedi Order by telling them the truth.
Labyrinth of Evil again suggests that Dooku did not go all out against Obi-Wan and Anakin;
"Hold Kenobi and Skywalker, Lord Tyranus. Entertain them. Play to their weakness. Demonstrate your mastery, as you have on previous occasions."
Nice 👆
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Don't choose one of Dooku's low showings. Even then he proved too fast for Savage.
Yeah and later Dooku performed far better against a vastly superior duo ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, Savage was not as trained when he fought Dooku as he was when he fought Sidious.
His training never made much difference because he hardly had any. Dave Filoni confirmed that pretty much all his power came from the Nightsister amp.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it'd give him a ''huge advantage'' over Dooku.
This doesn't make any sense. Unless Dooku has an advantage in physical strength or skill, then why wouldn't it give him an advantage over Dooku? If Dooku has nothing to counteract Sidious' speed, then Sidious has the advantage in sabers.
Sidious wouldn't blitz Dooku or anything, but Sidious speed feats are considerably greater than Dooku's, and it would give Sidious a very big advantage.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku rather effortlessly tooled Grievous- Grievous was able to fight rather even with Fisto in Season 1 in TCW, and as you noted yourself, Fisto (before Season 1) was ''definitely superior to Obi-Wan at the time.''
No, Fisto was the superior saber duelist to Grievous, which is why he disarmed Grievous of one of his lightsabers, and then proceeded to force Grievous on the defensive throughout most of the fight.
Sidious blitzing three jedi masters (one who is proven superior to Grievous) >> tooling Grievous.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku was able to fight Ventress and two Nightsisters while drugged and blind, a team I certainly would put above that of Savage and Ventress.
I don't know if those two nightsisters were above Savage. But regardless, that fight really doesn't contradict the other; Dooku struggled during both occasions. And neither Ventress nor the nightsisters had Savage's strength, which is what put Dooku at a disadvantage during his fight against Ventress and Savage, whereas being drugged and blind is what put him at a disadvantage during his fight with Ventress and the nightsisters.
Like I said, I do feel like Dooku was taken by surprise by Savage's strength, but even after he realized just how strong Savage truly was, he still seemingly felt that his strength was a threat, considering that he relied on heavy force Usage to keep Savage at a distance. Sidious, on the otherhand, proved that he was even stronger than Savage, which is just another advantage Sidious would have over Dooku in a saber duel.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm certain Windu was also ''fully submerged in Vaapad'' on Boz Pity. I'm also certain that the quote fromDark Rendezvous does not indicate that it was a Mace Windu ''without'' Vaapad or Shatterpoint that was considered Dooku's equal.
Doubt it. The ROTS novel indicated that it took Windu time to draw on Sidious' own darkness and match Sidious in sheer speed, which is why at the beginning of the fight, Mace could do absolutely nothing to prevent Sidious from slaughtering his friends and being forced all the way into the office. When Mace fought Dooku on Boz Pity, he was basically fighting evenly with Dooku right at the very beginning, when their blades first met. Certainly if Dooku was equal to Sidious, he should have been on the winning end at the beginning of his duel with Windu, especially considering that he didn't have three other jedi to worry about.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Doesn't matter they were made before. Are you suggesting a retcon of the quotes in Dark Rendezvous?
No, I'm not suggesting we retcon anything, I'm saying those quotes were referring to Mace before his fight with Sidious. Mace's feats before his fight with Sidious do not even compare to Sidious, so why should I assume that Dooku is on par with Sidious if the quotes were referring to Mace before his fight with Sidious?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Expand on this.
Mace's other consistent feats do not compare to Sidious', and Mace wasn't even a match for Sidious until after he was forced in the chancellor's office. If Mace can always achieve that same level during any fight, then there should be no argument as to who would win out of Dooku and Mace, considering that Mace (without help) was fighting evenly with Dooku from the very beginning of their duel, and we know from the ROTS novel, it required time to be Sidious' equal, so if his and Dooku's fight on Boz Pity would have lasted, then it would have been only a matter of time before Mace completely eclipsed Dooku, considering that he was already an equal to Dooku from the beginning.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vaapad is so stupid.
The only way I can make sense of the speed-levels is :
Yoda and Sidious are 6's.
Mace and Dooku are 5's.
Kit and co are 4's.
A 6 is fast enough and has enough of an edge to blitz a 4 but not a 5, although they are clearly superior. Likewise a 5 isn't quite fast enough to blitz 4's. Thus Dooku can fight Yoda evenly enough to not be outclassed, yet still a step below him. He isn't on their level though and can't replicate their feats.