ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Just so we're clear, the excerpt from LOE comes from Dooku's perspective. We know, in actuality, that Dooku isn't Sidious's equal.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

But even still, I doubt Dooku actually meant that he was an equal to Sidious. In DR he made it clear that he didn't view himself as Sidious's equal. And if I recall correctly, Dooku even implies that he reached his limit as of DR, which seems to suggest that he didn't have much faith in ever overcoming Sidious alone, which is probably why he planned on overthrowing Sidious with the help of an apprentice.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually that is EXACTLY what this was.. you know you have no leg to stand on, and frankly, you never did with your opening post. I'm just glad you realized it before your fragile ego couldn't take anymore.

Because C-canon which directly pertains to the comparative strength of the two fighters at hand is "no leg to stand on". Like I said, these boards must have gone to the dogs if you're any indication of the intelligence of debater left here.

Although I have read some good arguments from others; it would perhaps be unfair to them if I was to lump them into the same category as an ignorant fool like you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well it's enough of an advantage that Dooku would have very little to no hope of ever overcoming Sidious in a pure blade match, unless you can point out an advantage that Dooku has over Sidious, such as skill (which you have yet to prove) and/or strength (which I already proved Sidious is stronger).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And hopefully you're not implying that Anakin is faster than Mace just because he is considered the most powerful/fastest of [b]his generation (which Windu wouldn't be apart of). [/B]

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Because that's what we do in a vs. forum.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I proved that Sidious is much stronger than Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku can no doubt end Savage rather effortlessly in a pure blade match IMO (assuming he doesn't underestimate his strength), but he'd probably have to do it as quickly as possible; he wouldn't be able to afford to play around with Savage the way Sidious did because Savage's strength is still a threat to Dooku, which is why he spent most of the fight using FL on him: to keep him at a distance.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You said that Ventress and the nightsisters were a better team (which you have yet to prove),

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
as if Dooku's showing against them contradicts his showing against Ventress and Savage, which it doesn't contradict it because the nightsisters didn't possess Savage's strength, which is what put Dooku at a momentary disadvantage during that fight. Ventress and the nightsisters put Dooku at a disadvantage by drugging/blinding him. In both cases, Dooku struggled, but for different reasons, so there is no contradiction.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku viewed Savage's strength as a threat, and Sidious proved that he was stronger than Savage, so why wouldn't it matter? It matters even more when Sidious is also considerably faster than Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not saying Sidious would disarm Dooku the way Savage did, as Dooku is possibly aware of his master's force enhanced physical strength, so he'd probably be more prepared, but it's still an advantage Sidious has over Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ventress managing to hold on to her saber for some time does not mean she is equal to Savage in strength, considering how he ragdolled her everywhere. I believe Dooku could have also held on to his if he wasn't taken by surprise, but he still felt Savage's strength was a threat to him even after he realized how strong he was. So I'm not sure why Dooku being stronger than Ventress means anything.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mace wouldn't be blitzed; he doesn't need to reach Sidious' level (which required a little time) in order to react faster than the jedi who accompanied him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If vaapad allows Mace to instantly reach Sidious's level, then why was he being overwhelmed by Sidious in the beginning of the duel when he had three other jedi with him? Windu's is a very aggressive fighter and his form relies mostly on speed, so when he is taken out of his element and [b]forced on the defensive, then it's probably because his opponent is faster and more aggressive.[/B]

TCW Maul is evidently on Obi-Wan's level with a saber, yet he couldn't prevent Savage Opress from getting his arm severed. Was it Maul's fault? No.

For the record, Mace probably didn't know what would happen. But that's speculation and I'm not getting into that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Although Mace can instantly submerge into vaapad, the bolded part indicates that he was deeper in it than he was at the beginning. And he didn't begin to fight evenly with Palpatine until after he was forced into the chancellor's office.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, after it had explained how vaapad opens a gate that restrains one's inner darkness, the novel then refers to Mace's fight with Sidious as "vaapad's ultimate test", which may suggest that there was a level of restraint(as far as inner darkness) in all of Windu's fights previous to the one he had with Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm not saying he did. I'm saying that during his fight with Sidious, he was fighting at a level that he had never fought before.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But if you believe he can reach that level during any fight,

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
then he would handily defeat Dooku in a saber duel, considering it required time for Windu to reach that level, and considering he was already fighting evenly with Dooku at the very beginning of their duel, from the moment their blades met. Sidious, on the otherhand, was able to slaughter three jedi and then proceed to force Windu all the way into the chancellor's office during the beginning of their duel.

No. Fights are inconsistent. For one, Obi-Wan was able to get quite a lot of kicks in on Maul in the start of ''Revival'' yet he was getting beat in the end.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku wouldn't be able to replicate that feat; he'd be stomped if he threw himself at Windu, Fisto, Tiin and Kolar.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In other words: Sidious didn't have to start from scratch with Dooku as he did with Maul. Dooku was already well trained in jedi arts (force), was already a master duelist, and was already political savvy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obviously Dooku was not a perfect equal to Sidious in every category, otherwise he wouldn't be scared shit-less just by talking to Sidious over a hologram.

The quote makes it clear, when Sidious met Dooku he thought of him as an equal; the fact that it notes Dooku as ''already trained in the Jedi arts, a master duelist'' makes me think he thought of Dooku as an equal in swordmanship.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Dooku had a much better saber-showing in RotS (before Anakin got mad that is), so why don't you choose that as an example instead of his arguably worst saber-showing?

Actually according to the Novel and the Script Anakin was already getting mad before Dooku almost stomped both Anakin and Obi-Wan together.

But Anakin reached a new Uber level when he defeated Dooku.

So yeah that feat of Dooku's is arguably more impressive than Sidious's beating of Maul and Savage.

Because ROTS Obi-Wan > Savage and ROTS Anakin > Maul.

Whilst the Anakin in the state in which he defeated Dooku was miles above Maul and Savage.

I honestly can see Anakin beat both Savage and Maul at the same time.

Rampant Ox summed it up well.
Perhaps the only Windu's true advantage over Dooku is stamina. In shatterpoint he had very long strength-oriented fight with TK and Force-enhanced attacks against Kar Vastor.

Also, after it had explained how vaapad opens a gate that restrains one's inner darkness, the novel then refers to Mace's fight with Sidious as "vaapad's ultimate test", which may suggest that there was a level of restraint(as far as inner darkness) in all of Windu's fights previous to the one he had with Sidious.

"Bolts splintered off in all directions; the erratic staccato of badly aimed shots took all his concentration and skill to intercept. Mace sank deeper and deeper into the Force, surrendering more and more of his conscious thought to the instinctive whirl of Vaapad, and even so some bolts slipped past him and whanged randomly around the inside of the bunker.
He was too deep in Vaapad to make a plan, too deep even to think, but he was a Jedi Master: he didn't have to think.

He knew."

So deep in Vaapad that he couldn't even think. Against Sidious he could think and even used shatterpoint.

Also, this:

"But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

An ordinary man would have been unconscious. Vastor seemed to be getting stronger.

Vastor fired another of those blinding slaps. This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor peleKs swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. Vastor threw the other even harder-which only made the inside of that arm connect that much harder with Mace's counterhook.

Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. "This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Blitzing someone with power on the scale of Yoda is as impressive Vaapad feat as it could get. So his use of Vaapad against Sidious is hardly unique.

@Arhael

Nice quotes. Are they from Shatterpoint?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually it's not a moot point.. and I'm disappointed we need to go over the obvious here....

Mace isn't more powerful than Sids on a normal basis. Of course that is true. What you're not understanding is that thanks to Vaapad.. he increases his stats across the board by drawing on Sids power or any DS power. not only that.. but his force reserves are constantly replenished which thus increases his stamina. This is basic big DP and you shold know this... Normally Mace isn't as powerful.. but thanks to Vaapad he can then compete with him and beat him.

I've heard it many times. I just don't buy it.

Even if it was due to Vapaad "reflecting the Dark Side," and "Drawing on Sids power" the best that did was make him Sids equal. They reached an Impasse.

Since Mace and Dooku have already been decribed as equals, I don't see what "huge advantage" Vapaad will give him.

Fact is DR states Mace is Dooku's equal in Sabers. It didn't say, Mace WITHOUT VAPAAD is equal to Dooku.

The way I see it the less powerful comatant might be more skilled in some ways and might be able to pull off a win.

Don't tell me Kenobi is more powerful than Maul and Savage put together. He's not even as powerful as Sith Anakin. And yet he has wins against those opponents.

Same way Mace beat Sids in a Saber fight one time. Doesn't mean he's as powerful as Sids or would win a majority of All-Out's against him.

Sidious is more powerful than Dooku. Doesn't mean Dooku would have no chance of ever besting him in Sabers when starting the fight accompanied by 3 Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
@Arhael

Nice quotes. Are they from Shatterpoint?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He doesn't need to be stronger and faster. Mace was not.

If Dooku is not as fast or as strong as Palpatine, then what hope would he have in overcoming him? That's basically what I'm asking.

And evidently, after fully submerging in vaapad, Mace was as fast as Palpatine, considering that they were fighting as perfect equals and the novel even states that Mace was driving back the shadow [Palpatine] at one point. Even in the movie, we no longer see Palpatine driving Windu back with his force enhanced speed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Technically he would, though, wouldn't he? There's every chance he's faster than Mace.

Not anymore than I would be considered a part of my mom and dad's generation.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku had a much better saber-showing in RotS (before Anakin got mad that is), so why don't you choose that as an example instead of his arguably worst saber-showing?

I know the novel's version of the fight is different from the movie's, but the novel does show that Anakin and Obi Wan began to gain the upperhand after they switched to their true forms of combat, which is why Dooku was despeately trying to keep Obi Wan away from the fight by using the force and relying on battle droids. In the movie, Obi Wan wasn't even apart of the fight for very long, but they did manage to force Dooku to retreat up the stairs (just like in the book), and Dooku tried desperately to keep Kenobi away by using the force and battle droids, so Kenobi did show that he was a threat in sabers while fighting alongside Anakin. However, Anakin did most of the work as far as the movie. So I'm not seeing how it was a much better saber showing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku blocked overhead strikes from both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time.

The only time I'd say Anakin is on par with Savage in physical strength, is when he taps into his rage, and we seen what happened to Dooku when he did. But Anakin normally is not as strong as Savage. Even Anakin, along with Obi Wan, was forced back by Savage's strength.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Obi-Wan blocked both Savage's and Maul at the same time just like Sidious

Obi Wan had his back against the wall for support (didn't he? probably not because I seem to recall his legs buckling and him nearly being forced backwards to the ground) and his sabers combined to press forward with both arms, and he was about to be overpowered until he kicked Savage in his weakened knee.

Sidious, on the otherhand, was in the middle of brothers on one knee, and managed to lift himself off the ground and press back both Maul and Savage, using one arm for each.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Which is exactly what Dooku did

Did what? Keep Savage at a distance? Yeah I know, and that's because he felt that Savage was a threat due to his strength. Whereas Palpatine proved that he can physically overpower Savage to the point that he even felt safe in toying with him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't think Savage could win against two Nightsisters while drugged and blinded

Well, no, but I'm not trying to compare Savage to Dooku. You said the nightsisters made a better team for Ventress than Savage did, and basically I disagree. I believe that if Dooku were to fight Savage and Ventress while drugged and blind, he would have been in bigger trouble than with Ventress and the nightsisters. The nightsister might be more technically skilled than Savage, but Savage is far stronger than them, and that is what Dooku was struggling with during his fight with Savage and Ventress.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Again, it's not that big of a difference.

Well you seemed to agree that Sidious is considerably faster, so you don't think being stronger would give Sidious an even more considerable advantage?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Does Dooku?

No. And I never said Sidious would blitz Dooku. I think Dooku would put up a bit of a challenge, but Sidious would eventually overwhelm him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Is it Mace's fault that Kit Fisto was slain?

No, but if Windu was truly an equal to Palpatine, then he should of had the advantage when Sidious was attending to the first two jedi. It's not like they were far apart from eachother, and plus Mace had Kit right alongside him. Mace had a very huge advantage.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
TCW Maul is evidently on Obi-Wan's level with a saber, yet he couldn't prevent Savage Opress from getting his arm severed.

Palpatine cut Fisto down in seconds while similtaneously crossing blades with Windu. Obi Wan severed Savage's arm after kicking him in his weakened knee, while they were in the process of overpowering Kenobi in a saber-lock. Now, if Obi Wan jumped across a room and slaughtered two force-using swordsmasters before Maul and Savage could do a thing, and then turn to engage Maul and Savage, slaughtering Savage in seconds, and then proceed to force Maul on the defensive, then I would be able to see a comparison. But Obi Wan managing to fight off both Maul and Savage, who were only trying to capture him, and managing to sever Savage's arm because of opportunity, hardly compares.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And? If my mind serves correctly, the novel doesn't even mention Vaapad in the fight until after Kit Fisto was slain. It doesn't prove that he was ''deeper'' in Vaapad than earlier in the fight as it wasn't even mentioned.

You said Mace can instantly submerge himself in vaapad. Are you suggesting he was having trouble that day?

Regardless, we know that Mace at one point started submerging in vaapad, and then like a paragraph later, after they had already been fighting for a bit, it states that "Mace was deep in it now". To me, it seems to suggest that he was deeper in it than when he first started to submerge himself.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Before the line ''This was Vaapad's ultimate test'' it just explains what a vaapad is. I don't get this part of your post, so if you could, quote the novel.

"Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master. This was Vaapad's ultimate test."

It wouldn't make sense that his fight with Sidious is referred to as "Vaapad's ultimate test" if he always fights with this level of inner darkness or if this fight was nothing unique. Imo, it suggests that Mace may have used a level of restraint up until this fight with Palpatine, and now he is using his inner darkness to it's fullest. Either that, or Mace had a higher level of dark emotions than he ever had, and I've seen a pretty good argument for that as well. For example, The Complete Visual Dictionary states that Anakin's revelation that Palpatine was a sith lord, "hollowed Mace to the core". Mace was pissed that the republic he loved was controled by a sith lord, and how he had been played by Sidious.

So regardless of the quotes Arhael posted, the novel does make it clear that his use of vaapad against Palpatine was unique. Arhael's quotes do not contradict my argument, all they did was prove that Mace was deep in vaapad while deflecting blaster bolts, and that he can punch someone who is slower than him six times before he could blink.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove he fought on a higher level than in other duels.

Between the feats/quotes that suggest Mace is on par with Dooku, who is inferior to Palpatine (the same guy Mace was able to stalemate), and the novel's implication that Mace was utilizing vaapad with more potency than ever, I'd assume it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And Dooku was able to ''effortlessly'' defend himself against Anakin and Obi-Wan in RotS at the same time, yet we see Anakin give Dooku hell in TCW.

The only time Dooku "effortlessly" defended against Anakin was at the beginning, before they switched to their true forms, according to the novel. In the movie, it wasn't very long until they had Dooku retreating up the stairs and desperately trying to take Obi Wan out of the fight. Anakin did most of the work, Kenobi wasn't even in the fight for very long, if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The quote makes it clear, when Sidious met Dooku he thought of him as an equal; the fact that it notes Dooku as ''already trained in the Jedi arts, a master duelist'' makes me think he thought of Dooku as an equal in swordmanship.

The quote wasn't exclusively referring to swordsmanship, so you would also have to think that Sidious thought of Dooku as an all-around equal, which we know he didn't. Dooku didn't even think that.

Sidious was just leading Dooku on into believing that they both were equally important to Sidious' grand plans. Dooku was already well trained in the force, already a master duelist, and a political visionary.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Dooku is not as fast or as strong as Palpatine, then what hope would he have in overcoming him? That's basically what I'm asking.

And evidently, after fully submerging in vaapad, Mace was as fast as Palpatine, considering that they were fighting as perfect equals and the novel even states that Mace was driving back the shadow [Palpatine] at one point. Even in the movie, we no longer see Palpatine driving Windu back with his force enhanced speed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not anymore than I would be considered a part of my mom and dad's generation.

Anakin in RotS=24
Mace in RotS=53

=29 year old difference

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So I'm not seeing how it was a much better saber showing.

Defending himself against the RotS duo is a much better showing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only time I'd say Anakin is on par with Savage in physical strength, is when he taps into his rage, and we seen what happened to Dooku when he did. But Anakin normally is not as strong as Savage. Even Anakin, along with Obi Wan, was forced back by Savage's strength.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obi Wan had his back against the wall for support (didn't he? probably not because I seem to recall his legs buckling and him nearly being forced backwards to the ground) and his sabers combined to press forward with both arms, and he was about to be overpowered until he kicked Savage in his weakened knee.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious, on the otherhand, was in the middle of brothers on one knee, and managed to lift himself off the ground and press back both Maul and Savage, using one arm for each.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Did what? Keep Savage at a distance? Yeah I know, and that's because he felt that Savage was a threat due to his strength. Whereas Palpatine proved that he can physically overpower Savage to the point that he even felt safe in toying with him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, no, but I'm not trying to compare Savage to Dooku. You said the nightsisters made a better team for Ventress than Savage did, and basically I disagree. I believe that if Dooku were to fight Savage and Ventress while drugged and blind, he would have been in bigger trouble than with Ventress and the nightsisters. The nightsister might be more technically skilled than Savage, but Savage is far stronger than them, and that is what Dooku was struggling with during his fight with Savage and Ventress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flr5bI2Crvg

Clearly he couldn't do that in a little room such as where he fought Ventress and Savage.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well you seemed to agree that Sidious is considerably faster, so you don't think being stronger would give Sidious an even more considerable advantage?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, but if Windu was truly an equal to Palpatine, then he should of had the advantage when Sidious was attending to the first two jedi. It's not like they were far apart from eachother, and plus Mace had Kit right alongside him. Mace had a very huge advantage.

Kit falls short to the elite.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine cut Fisto down in seconds while similtaneously crossing blades with Windu. Obi Wan severed Savage's arm after kicking him in his weakened knee, while they were in the process of overpowering Kenobi in a saber-lock. Now, if Obi Wan jumped across a room and slaughtered two force-using swordsmasters before Maul and Savage could do a thing, and then turn to engage Maul and Savage, slaughtering Savage in seconds, and then proceed to force Maul on the defensive, then I would be able to see a comparison. But Obi Wan managing to fight off both Maul and Savage, who were only trying to capture him, and managing to sever Savage's arm because of opportunity, hardly compares.

From Labyrinth of Evil;

There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

Sometimes he can press Dooku, sometimes he can't.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regardless, we know that Mace at one point started submerging in vaapad, and then like a paragraph later, after they had already been fighting for a bit, it states that "Mace was deep in it now". To me, it seems to suggest that he was deeper in it than when he first started to submerge himself.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It wouldn't make sense that his fight with Sidious is referred to as "Vaapad's ultimate test" if he always fights with this level of inner darkness or if this fight was nothing unique. Imo, it suggests that Mace may have used a level of restraint up until this fight with Palpatine, and now he is using his inner darkness to it's fullest. Either that, or Mace had a higher level of dark emotions than he ever had, and I've seen a pretty good argument for that as well. For example, The Complete Visual Dictionary states that Anakin's revelation that Palpatine was a sith lord, "hollowed Mace to the core". Mace was pissed that the republic he loved was controled by a sith lord, and how he had been played by Sidious.

Nah, it's not fact that he did so. It's just you and me interpretating the novel differently so it's kind of pointless to argue.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only time Dooku "effortlessly" defended against Anakin was at the beginning, before they switched to their true forms, according to the novel. In the movie, it wasn't very long until they had Dooku retreating up the stairs and desperately trying to take Obi Wan out of the fight. Anakin did most of the work, Kenobi wasn't even in the fight for very long, if I recall correctly.

The beams of their lightsabers hummed and clashed as they moved across the chamber. Dooku defended himself effortlessly.
On the level above, the two droids didn't budge, but watched silently as the figures came to a momentary standstill. While the three lightsabers continued to blaze, Dooku grinned at his opponents and said, "I've been looking forward to this."

Not intimidated by the elder swordsman, Anakin said, "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count."

"Good," Dooku said. "Twice the pride, double the fall."

The Jedi charged once again. Dooku backed up as he parried their blows, then used the Force to throw Obi-Wan to the floor.

Defending yourself ''effortlessly'' against two opponents on the same level as atleast two TCW Maul's is extremely impressive.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The quote wasn't exclusively referring to swordsmanship, so you would also have to think that Sidious thought of Dooku as an all-around equal, which we know he didn't. Dooku didn't even think that.

The current generation can also refer to everyone whose around right now.

Not that it matters because the quote clearly stated "perhaps of any generation."

Mace Windu also stated that "Skywalker is possibly the most powerful Jedi alive." This after he learned he had slain Count Dooku.

Dooku beating Sidious is Foolish...
If he thought he could take Sidious he would did it before ATOC or did it in LOE.
Maybe in DR.

But since Dooku is only the Apprentice and just a temporary place holder.
well...Moving on I haven't read anything saying Mace and Dooku are or were equals.
Dooku defeated Sora (self proclaimed )Master of Vaapad. which mastered him.

I believe Sora mastered the physical side of Vaapad.
Why charge into Dooku weilding Force Lightning instead of letting your light saber
Absorb the lightning like Obi Wan?

Or Maybe Sora wanted to secretly join Dooku and let himself be captured, who knows
The Fact is Mace didn't want to kill Dooku because of his attachment to Dooku.

Restraint was the other key factor why he wasn't fully only partially submerged into Vaapad.
When the two Masters fought in DR or any other times before and after.

The ultimate test in my opinion was poorly written.
The test belonged to Anakin which he failed.
We saw why Mace didn't trust Anakin.

He had a chance to earn that trust
trust to anybody is earned not given.

He had several occasions to earn Mace's full trust.
I don't think Yoda fully trusted him,either.

Anyway good thread...

Dooku faster than Mace?
In your dreams..... Maybe when Mace was a padawan.
Makashi can't handle the power blows of Djem So,Juyo,or stars help you Vaapad!!!
Dooku stays true to everything Makashi is....
Makashi can't even deflect or reflect blaster bolts.....

So why say something as crazy as Dooku being faster?
Dooku tires easily when the duel is prolonged.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Both have fought as equals to Mace so I don't see what stops Dooku from taking a slight minority such as 3/10

Dooku only fought as an equal to Mace years before Mace fought Palpatine. Their fight on Boz Pity was unfinished, and if you believe Mace can reach the same level as when he fought with Palpatine--which took a little time--then it would have only been a matter of time before Mace overwhelmed Dooku, considering that he was already fighting as an equal with Dooku from the very beginning of their duel, before he had time to fully submerge himself in vaapad and reach that same level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin could probably solo Ventress and Savage in an open place

I doubt that, unless Anakin taps into his super rage mode.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Defending himself against the RotS duo is a much better showing.

Maybe. But the two showings are not inconsistent. Dooku was seemingly taken by surprise by Savage's strength, which Obi Wan and And Anakin do not possess. It was Savage's strength that threatened Dooku, so you can't really compare the showings. And as I said, I don't find his fight with Obi Wan and Anakin as much more impressive, as he was struggling in that fight as well, and desperately trying to keep Obi Wan away from the fight, the same way he was trying to keep Savage away.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin is stronger than Kenobi so he's probably on par with the brothers.

I don't see Anakin as being as physically strong as Savage until he taps into his full rage, and when he does, we see what he can do to the likes of Dooku.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What I am saying is, the outcome is not gonna be decided in a saberlock in which Sidious overpowers Dooku.

Strength does not only come into play during a saber-lock.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, check earlier in the same episode where Dooku disarms Savage extremely easy.

Dooku out-skilled him, and Savage was having trouble tapping into his rage during his early training with Dooku, as seen when he could barely lift a few monolith's, but then we later see him throwing a ship, and then ragdolling people like Obi Wan and Anakin similtaneously.

Regardless, we know that Savage was fighting Dooku with more strength during their last fight, and even after realizing how strong Savage was, Dooku still felt threatened by it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was only struggling with the strength because he hadn't got space to maneuver himself properly, which is what Makashi is all about. Again I'm refering to his extremely easy;
Clearly he couldn't do that in a little room such as where he fought Ventress and Savage.

It doesn't matter, Savage's strength is still an advantage he has over Dooku, which is something he doesn't have over Sidious, seeing how Sidious can push him back using only one arm, and floor and daze him with physical attacks. Palpatine is stronger than Savage; Savage is stronger than Dooku.

BTW, the room they were fighting in seemed pretty spacious to me. Dooku had no trouble in moving around and evading their attacks. He shouldn't need a football field or miles worth of room to fight, unless he's trying to run from them.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Speed would give him a bigger advantage, but not to the point where Dooku can only see ''afterimages'' such as Maul did in the end of ''The Lawless''

No, I didn't say that. Dooku is exceptionally good at deflecting/defending himself from attacks, but given Palpatine's superior speed and strength, Dooku would only be able to keep that up for so long before Palpatine eventually overwhelms him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kit falls short to the elite.

As of CD, Kit was superior to Obi Wan in swordsmanship, and his speed was such that it even amazed Kenobi. In TCW, Fisto was basically able to outduel Grievous and force him on the defensive--the same Grievous who consistently gave Obi Wan hell all throughout TCW, and whose speed was capable of "overloading" Kenobi's defense.

Kit is not Dooku level, no, but he is definitely a pretty good duelist, and was considered one of the order's best.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
''Deep in it now'', in comparison to when? Again, the novel don't mention him submerging himself into it, so it's kind of impossible to compare.

It does mention him submerging in vaapad after Palpatine killed Fisto. You even said it yourself. It doesn't mention when he began to, but like a paragraph later, after him and Palpatine had already been fighting for a bit, it mentions that he was "deep in it now." To me it seems to suggest that he was deeper in it than when he first began to submerge, which make sense, because he wasn't even able to match Sidious's force enhanced speed until after he was forced into the chancellor's office.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I agree to an extent. The ''ultimate test'' line refers more to that if he won the duel, the Jedi would've actually killed the Sith Lord behind the whole war.

Nah, it's not fact that he did so. It's just you and me interpretating the novel differently so it's kind of pointless to argue.

Yeah, but I'm sticking to my interpretation because it helps my argument. 😛

No, but I see your point, and you might be right. "Vaapad's ultimate test" could just as easily been referring to whether or not he defeated Sidious. I assumed it was referring to Mace using his inner darkness to an extent that he had never used it before, because right after the novel gave the description on what vaapad was and how much of a risk it was for a jedi to use his inner darkness, it then calls his battle with Palpatine "vaapad's ultimate test." So as I said, I assumed it was referring to Mace using his inner darkness to it's fullest.

But anyhow, we know that vaapad was created by Mace in order to use his inner darkness/dark emotions in battle, but without falling to the dark side. And we know how all throughout the mythos, a dark sider can enhance himself with dark emotions (such as anger and rage), and the more darker their emotions are, the greater a boost it gives them (good example: Maul). Wouldn't it also make sense that the darker Mace's emotions are, the more of a boost it would give him? And we know that after discovering that Sidious was a sith lord, he was pretty pissed off that the whole war he had fought in, had been for nothing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You can't make a comparison to the novel because the quote is not from there, it's from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader;

Oh, ok. I'm arguing the ROTS novel's version of the fight by memory, and I remember Dooku musing how easily he could have ended them, but that was before they switched to their true styles of combat and started pressing Dooku. So that's what I assumed you were referring to.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Defending yourself ''effortlessly'' against two opponents on the same level as atleast two TCW Maul's is extremely impressive.

It is impressive, but...

Slaughtering 3 jedi swordsmasters in seconds, and then proceeding to force Windu back >>> effortlessly defending against Anakin and Obi Wan for a few moments.

So if you consider Dooku's fight against Anakin and Kenobi as his best saber showing, then Palpatine's best saber showing showing beats his considerably. Hell, even Palpatine's ownage of Maul and Savage, which isn't even his best saber performance, considering he wasn't trying his hardest (wasn't even trying to kill Maul), is more impressive than Dooku defending against Anakin and Obi Wan for a short while. And I'm not saying that because I believe Savage and Maul to be superior to Anakin and Obi Wan, I'm saying that because of the casual ease in which Palpatine handled the brothers.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The quote is canon; whether you choose to interpretate it as ''Dooku was Sidious' equal all-around'' or ''Dooku was Sidious' equal in swordplay'' is up to you, but which one is the most likely?

No, it comes from Dooku's perspective, and even if I did take the quote as a fact, I would have to assume that Dooku is an all-around equal to Sidious, as the quote was not specifically talking about swordplay.

Basically, we have solid proof that Palpatine is stronger than Dooku based on their respective performances against Savage; we have solid proof that Palpatine is faster than Dooku based on the fact that his speed feats are considerably greater than Dooku's.

What I'm asking you is: what chance does Dooku have in overcoming Sidious in a strict duel when Sidious has all the considerable advantages where a saber duel is concerned? Your argument is basically this: because Mace was able to stalemate Sidious, and Dooku has quotes and feats that suggest he is Windu's equal, therefore he is roughly on par with Sidious.

I would be more understanding if we had no other feats to compare Sidious and Dooku (but we do, we have very good feats for comparing and contrasting them), or if we had absolutely no evidents that Mace may have been fighting at a level that he had never fought before, and if the jedi who accompanied him just sucked, but we know they don't suck.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The current generation can also refer to everyone whose around right now.

Not that it matters because the quote clearly stated "perhaps of any generation."

Mace Windu also stated that "Skywalker is possibly the most powerful Jedi alive." This after he learned he had slain Count Dooku.

Not even possibly, he says "arguably", which is in my opinion even more credible.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku only fought as an equal to Mace years before Mace fought Palpatine. Their fight on Boz Pity was unfinished, and if you believe Mace can reach the same level as when he fought with Palpatine--which took a little time--then it would have only been a matter of time before Mace overwhelmed Dooku, considering that he was already fighting as an equal with Dooku from the very beginning of their duel, before he had time to fully submerge himself in vaapad and reach that same level.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I doubt that, unless Anakin taps into his super rage mode.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maybe. But the two showings are not inconsistent. Dooku was seemingly taken by surprise by Savage's strength, which Obi Wan and And Anakin do not possess. It was Savage's strength that threatened Dooku, so you can't really compare the showings. And as I said, I don't find his fight with Obi Wan and Anakin as much more impressive, as he was struggling in that fight as well, and desperately trying to keep Obi Wan away from the fight, the same way he was trying to keep Savage away.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't see Anakin as being as physically strong as Savage until he taps into his full rage, and when he does, we see what he can do to the likes of Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Strength does not only come into play during a saber-lock.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
out-skilled him, and Savage was having trouble tapping into his rage during his early training with Dooku, as seen when he could barely lift a few monolith's, but then we later see him throwing a ship, and then ragdolling people like Obi Wan and Anakin similtaneously.

It is quite clear to me Dooku was very confident with open space to maneuver around Savage.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regardless, we know that Savage was fighting Dooku with more strength during their last fight, and even after realizing how strong Savage was, Dooku still felt threatened by it.

I see it as Dooku having a harder time maneuvering around Savage because there wasn't the space and because Ventress was there.

But it's interpretation versus interpretation so neither of us is gonna win. 😛

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It doesn't matter, Savage's strength is still an advantage he has over Dooku, which is something he doesn't have over Sidious, seeing how Sidious can push him back using only one arm, and floor and daze him with physical attacks. Palpatine is stronger than Savage; Savage is stronger than Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
IBTW, the room they were fighting in seemed pretty spacious to me. Dooku had no trouble in moving around and evading their attacks. He shouldn't need a football field or miles worth of room to fight, unless he's trying to run from them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, I didn't say that. Dooku is exceptionally good at deflecting/defending himself from attacks, but given Palpatine's superior speed and strength, Dooku would only be able to keep that up for so long before Palpatine eventually overwhelms him.

I don't doubt Mace and Dooku are inferior to Sidious in everything. But inconsistencies happen.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As of CD, Kit was superior to Obi Wan in swordsmanship, and his speed was such that it even amazed Kenobi. In TCW, Fisto was basically able to outduel Grievous and force him on the defensive--the same Grievous who consistently gave Obi Wan hell all throughout TCW, and whose speed was capable of "overloading" Kenobi's defense.

Kit is not Dooku level, no, but he is definitely a pretty good duelist, and was considered one of the order's best.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It does mention him submerging in vaapad after Palpatine killed Fisto. You even said it yourself. It doesn't mention when he began to, but like a paragraph later, after him and Palpatine had already been fighting for a bit, it mentions that he was "deep in it now." To me it seems to suggest that he was deeper in it than when he first began to submerge, which make sense, because he wasn't even able to match Sidious's force enhanced speed until after he was forced into the chancellor's office.[QUOTE=14274639]Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
[B]

[QUOTE=14274639]Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
[B]Yeah, but I'm sticking to my interpretation because it helps my argument. 😛

xD

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, but I see your point, and you might be right. "Vaapad's ultimate test" could just as easily been referring to whether or not he defeated Sidious. I assumed it was referring to Mace using his inner darkness to an extent that he had never used it before, because right after the novel gave the description on what vaapad was and how much of a risk it was for a jedi to use his inner darkness, it then calls his battle with Palpatine "vaapad's ultimate test." So as I said, I assumed it was referring to Mace using his inner darkness to it's fullest.

Wouldn't it also make sense that the darker Mace's emotions are, the more of a boost it would give him? And we know that after discovering that Sidious was a sith lord, he was pretty pissed off that the whole war he had fought in had been for nothing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, ok. I'm arguing the ROTS novel's version of the fight by memory, and I remember Dooku musing how easily he could have ended them, but that was before they switched to their true styles of combat and started pressing Dooku. So that's what I assumed you were referring to.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So if you consider Dooku's fight against Anakin and Kenobi as his best saber showing,

I don't consider it his best showing. I just feel it's unfair to judge Dooku on that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it comes from Dooku's perspective, and even if I did take the quote as a fact, I would have to assume that Dooku is an all-around equal to Sidious, as the quote was not specifically talking about swordplay.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What I'm asking you is: what chance does Dooku have in overcoming Sidious in a strict duel when Sidious has all the considerable advantages where a saber duel is concerned? Your argument is basically this: because Mace was able to stalemate Sidious, and Dooku has quotes and feats that suggest he is Windu's equal, therefore he is roughly on par with Sidious.

Per RotS screenplay Sidious was disarmed by Yoda, so I think it's safe to assume both of them (Sidious and Dooku] are below Yoda in swordplay (Dooku more so). The gap between Dooku and Yoda isn't enormous though, so I fail to see what should make Sidious leagues beyond Dooku in swordsmanship.

My argument is that both Dooku and Mace have a chance in a strict duel, 1-2/10. Are they more skilled? No. My explanation to this is inconsistencies in fights while yours is your interpretation of the Revenge of the Sith novel.

If you agree that Dooku and Mace both should be able to take 1/10, perhaps 2/10 in a strict duel then we've reached an agreement. If not, this is opinion versus opinion and interpretation versus interpretation and there's no point discussing it any further.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not even possibly, he says "arguably", which is in my opinion even more credible.

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

-Revenge of the Sith

Originally posted by Intrepid37

What I wanted to address in this debate wasn't that Dooku is superior to Sidious in anything. Neither is Mace. But I suggested they were roughly on par in which you disagreed. To me that is taking it too far. Per Nick Gillard, Sidious is a level 9 and so are Mace and Anakin. We've seen how Dooku fares against Mace and Anakin. Logically he should be a level 9.

You guys can argue if he has any chance or not as you like, but addressing this, why does it matter that you think logically he should be a 9? He is stated explicitly to be an 8 at his peak, equal to the likes of Kenobi in saber combat. It was his overall abilities that allowed him to take Kenobi, not overwhelming him in sabers. Windu, Sidious, Anakin, and Yoda are 9s, Dooku is an 8. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
👆

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

-Revenge of the Sith