ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Originally posted by Ascendancy
You guys can argue if he has any chance or not as you like, but addressing this, why does it matter that you think logically he should be a 9? He is stated explicitly to be an 8 at his peak, equal to the likes of Kenobi in saber combat. It was his overall abilities that allowed him to take Kenobi, not overwhelming him in sabers. Windu, Sidious, Anakin, and Yoda are 9s, Dooku is an 8. It's as simple as that.

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Dooku has time and time again been refered to as Mace's equal. He has time and time again fought Anakin as an equal. Nowhere is he stated to be a level 8- his level wasn't given.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Yet, he was beaten, no?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
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Dooku has time and time again been refered to as Mace's equal. He has time and time again fought Anakin as an equal. Nowhere is he stated to be a level 8- his level wasn't given.

Vader was. Not Anakin.

He has been referred to as possibly Mace's equal. And yes, in that statement he was ranked as an 8. I'll look for it later and if I'm wrong I will happily admit to it.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
And yes, in that statement he was ranked as an 8.

No he wasn't. If anything he was implied to be a 9. Almost stomping 2 level 8's together (Kenobi and a not yet fully enraged Skywalker).

Plus Gillard said he lost to Skywalker because he underestimated him and was overconfident.

Add that to his near equal fight against another level 9(Yoda) in AOTC. And all the evidence points to Dooku also being a 9.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Yet, he was beaten, no?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
He has been referred to as possibly Mace's equal. And yes, in that statement he was ranked as an 8. I'll look for it later and if I'm wrong I will happily admit to it.

Point: they're equal. If Mace is considered a level 9 duelist, then Dooku should definitely be as well.

Mace would still beat dooku for a decisive majority. So I see no issue with him being a elite 8 or low 9. However, he was bested by a Anakin using his rage and giving in a bit to the DS.. Gillard said at that point Anakin was a 8. So he lost to an 8... he looked CLEARLY inferior to Yoda in every portion of their battle.. Yoda is a 9.. which again points to Dooku's ranking... He's below Sids in pretty much every single way.. which AGAIN pionts to Dooku's ranking being an elite 8 or bottom barrel 9. I lean towards 8 personally.

Dooku isn't a level 8, imo. Tbh I think he'd be at the bottom end of a level 9, while Sidious and Yoda would be at the higher end.

A level 8 isn't going to contend with Asajj+2 Nightsisters while blind. A level 8 isn't going to best Sora Bulq(who did well against Mace in sabers)+Tholme like they were fodder. A level 8 isn't going to be able to contend with Yoda on ANY level. A level 8 won't be shown stalemating Mace. A level 8 isn't going to be stated(by Yoda) as Mace's equal on neutral ground. An official guidebook isn't going to recognize a level 8 as =/> Mace in sparring competitions. Etc.

Don't cling exclusively to Gillard's levels concept. More evidence than not points to Dooku being roughly on par with Mace, who himself is logically a level 9.

Well I think we're pretty much in agreement for the most part... You say bottom of 9's (which I said was possible) but I lean more towards a elite 8 myself. We saw a level 8 in Kenobi contend and beat a level 9 Anakin. So, yes that can be an appropriate ranking considering the examples you cited. Which by the way imho don't put him at a level 9. Asajj and the nightsisters... meh.. Impressive but nothing to write home about. It's not like they were 9's or even 8's really. Sora.. again... nothing that puts him at a 9 imho. I lean more towards him losing to a 9 in Anakin.. losing to a 9 in Yoda.. and losing to a 9 in Sids.. and lastly.. thanks to Vaapad losing to a 9 in Mace... He's either been beaten or looked inferior to every 9 he's faced.. with the exception being Mace.. and even then.. he never beat him nor proved any superiority to him in a real fight. Just my thoughts but who knows.. we are mostly in agreement anyways.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well I think we're pretty much in agreement for the most part... You say bottom of 9's (which I said was possible) but I lean more towards a elite 8 myself.

Don't get me wrong, I know Yoda>Dooku in sabers. I just don't think the difference is vast/enormous.

Originally posted by Galan007

A level 8 isn't going to contend with Asajj+2 Nightsisters while blind. A level 8 isn't going to best Sora Bulq(who did well against Mace in sabers)+Tholme like they were fodder. A level 8 isn't going to be able to contend with Yoda on ANY level. A level 8 won't be shown stalemating Mace. A level 8 isn't going to be stated(by Yoda) as Mace's equal on neutral ground. An official guidebook isn't going to recognize a level 8 as =/> Mace in sparring competitions. Etc.

And a level 8 isn't going to almost stomp 2 other level 8's simultaneously - Kenobi and Anakin(before going Uber Anakin).

Originally posted by Galan007

Don't get me wrong, I know Yoda>Dooku in sabers. I just don't think the difference is vast/enormous.

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Please don't tell me you're referencing a fight where Dooku was killed are you? He didn't beat them 2 v 1.. and then lost 1 v 1... hardly what I would can great evidence for anything other than him being a 8.9.

Originally posted by Galan007
So you think maybe an 8.9 for Dooku? Yeah I could buy that I suppose, but only if we're assuming Yoda and Palps are mid-9's at best. /shrug

Don't get me wrong, I know Yoda>Dooku in sabers. I just don't think the difference is vast/enormous.

Yup that is pretty much right... As i said.. we're close in our thoughts

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Please don't tell me you're referencing a fight where Dooku was killed are you? He didn't beat them 2 v 1.. and then lost 1 v 1... hardly what I would can great evidence for anything other than him being a 8.9.

He almost stomped them both together. That was 2 level 8's combined. Dooku only died when Anakin shot up to a 9+

Which means.. ya know.. he's NOT a 9

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which means.. ya know.. he's NOT a 9

Anywho, if Anakin was, say, a 9.8 and Dooku was, say, a 9.0, then Anakin could have still bested him with relative ease, given Gillard's statement that the difference between [whole] levels is "enormous", and there would've almost been a [whole] level between Anakin and Dooku, despite them both being classified as "level 9's". Just my opinion. /shrug

The way how I view it.
ROTS peak Skywalker-9.7
Yoda-9.7
Sidious-9.5
Mace-9.3
Dooku-9.3

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which means.. ya know.. he's NOT a 9

How does stomping 2 level 8's together prove he's not a 9? Just because he got defeated by a 9, so what? Sidious also got defeated by a 9.

Dooku's at the very least a very high 8, like 8.8/8.9. But most probably in the 9 category.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The way how I view it.
ROTS peak Skywalker-9.7
Yoda-9.7
Sidious-9.5
Mace-9.3
Dooku-9.3

That would make sense. If there is a difference between Mace and Dooku it would be by 0.1. And certainly not by an entire tier.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The way how I view it.
ROTS peak Skywalker-9.7
Yoda-9.7
Sidious-9.5
Mace-9.3
Dooku-9.3

Anakin(peak)=9.8
Yoda=9.7
Palpatine=9.6
Mace=9.3, but has the potential to increase depending on 'teh darkness' of his opponent
Dooku=9.3

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How does stomping 2 level 8's together prove he's not a 9? Just because he got defeated by a 9, so what? Sidious also got defeated by a 9.

Dooku's at the very least a very high 8, like 8.8/8.9. But most probably in the 9 category.

That would make sense. If there is a difference between Mace and Dooku it would be by 0.1. And certainly not by an entire tier.

Why do you keep on saying he was STOMPING 2 level 8's? He was doing NO such thing... He was fighting on the defensive because they were taxing him. Shit he even had to call in the guards to try and seperate them because they were taxing them. Surely, you don't mean TK kenobi and kicking Anakin is stomping do you? That was his only offensive move and a desperate move because they had him on the ropes.. THIS ISN"T A STOMPING.

Dooku looked inferior to Yoda.. EVEN WHEN enhanced by the DS Nexus.

Dooku IS inferior to Sids

DOoku lost to Anakin

All of these guys are a level 9.

Pretty easy to convlude he's not a 9. He's an elite 8. 8.9 even.

My rankings would be

Yoda - 9.7
Mace - 9.6
Sids - 9.59999
Anakin peak - 9.3
Dooku - 8.9

I never understood how some of you can rank Anakin so high. His greatest feat for "zone" Anakin was beating dooku. Yet, that isn't factoring in that Dooku took him lightly.. dooku had already used up force reserves fighting both Anakin and Dooku... and Anakin's style was taylor made to overwehelm and tax dooku's (which wouldn't haappen with Kenobi, Mace or Sids for example). Yet all fo this context and people stil lrate him above Yoda or Sids r Mace... It's kind of a joke really. To take it further by Gillard's rankings... Anakin DIDN'T become a 9 till he TURNED to the DS. So we're talking about Gillard's rankings on the one hand... and agreeing with his base line premises for most.. yet totally go against what he believes when it comes to Anakin. :facepalm: