Yeah, I would give Dooku an 9.
Given that he was tooling “the master” of Soresu and Anakin, who by Dooku’s own addition was “the finest Djem So practitioner he has ever seen,” this is telling something.
Dooku’s brawls with Tholme, Bulq, Ventress, Grevious etc. and apparent ease with which he defeated them makes me believe he is a 9.
How then resolve this rank with his battles with Yoda and Anakin?
I think it’s simple:
Yoda 9.9
Sidious 9.7
ZonE Anakin 9.5
Mace 9.1 (but when Vaapad kicks in to its fullest, he goes up a bit)
Dooku 9.1
So when Dooku was on Vjun, he got amped (but not beyond 9.7/9.8 level), so that he gave Yoda a much better battle but still was unable to overcome him.
Similarly, Mace is Dooku’s equal in skill, and this explains why in the beginning of his battle with Sidious he was forced back. Yet later in the duel he got amped to 9.7 level and that enabled him give a fight that could have been “an eternal stalemate.”
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiIf Mace were that far above Dooku, then multiple sources wouldn't rank them as equals in sabers.
My rankings would beYoda - 9.7
Mace - 9.6
Sids - 9.59999
Anakin peak - 9.3
Dooku - 8.9
That's why I have them as equals, but still allow for the potential for Mace to increase, depending how much of his opponent's darkness he is able to channel.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku was fully replenished when he fought Anakin 1-on-1 as per the novel.
Right, but you're forgetting the consequence of replenishing via the force.. That means he just taxed his force reserves and won't have as much to call upon as Anakin proceeded to tax them more.
Originally posted by Galan007
If Mace were that far above Dooku, then multiple sources wouldn't rank them as equals in sabers.That's why I have them as equals, but still allow for the potential for Mace to increase, depending how much of his opponent's darkness he is able to channel.
Well my Mace ranking was him fully submerged in vaapad and fighting a DS.. If I was to give him a base base ranking.. It would be below sids and close to Anakin. So Mace's ranking would go down some, but I was already giving him a full vaapad mode ranking.
Ohhhh.. what I'm saying is... that once dooku used some of his force reserves from having so fight off kenobi and Anakin... that once he replenished them.. that limited the amount he had left when anakin was further depleting them with his attacks. So the initual fight with both of them did have its effects on Dooku
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.
He lifted his blade, and beckoned.
Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.
As you see, he drew on the force to replenish himself right before Anakin hit his pristine clarity.
The fight forehand didn't effect him. When he replenished himself he was fresh as new and it's not implied he replenished himself during mid-fight against Anakin.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
trouble tapping into his rage...?
That did sound silly. lol
But, yeah, something like that. After Savage failed to lift those structures, Dooku started lecturing Savage on how a dark sider must connect to the dark side by focusing his anger, etc.. and then he proceeded to irritate Savage with lightning.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Savage's advantage over his opponents is obviously his strength. Could he use it to an advantage when he fought Dooku and Ventress? Yeah. When he fought Dooku alone? No.
Yes, if Dooku underestimate's his strength as he did in that episode.
But no, had it been a one-on-one duel between Dooku and Savage, and if Dooku was fully prepared for Savage's strength, Savage would have stood absolutely no chance in taking a victory, at all. Because:
Dooku's speed >> Savage's speed.
Dooku's skill >>> Savage's skill
Savage's strength >> Dooku's strength (which is Savage's only advantage)
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't doubt that. But his showings doesn't indicate he can hang with the elite very well, as seen in RotS.
Fisto and Kenobi are not too far apart. Kenobi proved a threat to Dooku in sheer sabers while fighting alongside Anakin. Kit and two other saber-masters proved to be complete non-factors despite Windu being there with them.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
If my interpretation of the quote is getting left out, so should yours of the Revenge of the Sith novelization, which would leave us with... the movie and statements from Dark Rendezvous, which would support my argument. 😬
Huh? What do you mean? I'm not dismissing your interpretation of the quote (though it probably comes from Dooku's perspective), I'm saying that if you take the quote as truth, then you can't just apply the use of the word "equal" to just sword play, because the quote wasn't specifically talking about swordplay. The quote said Dooku was Palpatine's equal, and then it goes on to list three different categories that Dooku was accomplished in.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Per Nick Gillard, Sidious is a level 9 and so are Mace and Anakin. We've seen how Dooku fares against Mace and Anakin. Logically he should be a level 9.
As Galan007 brought to my attention, there is just too many contradictions with Gillard's leveling to take it seriously. Nick says the difference between a level 8 and 9 is enormous, yet there was not an enormous difference between Obi Wan (8) and Anakin (9). And Anakin supposedly didn't reach level 9 until after he turned to the dark side, yet he was able to defeat Dooku before that.
And as per Lucas himself, the reason why Kolar, Tiin and Fisto were slaughtered so easily, was because you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete, which would disqualify Kenobi as competition, the same Kenobi who proved to be some level of competition to Dooku.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Per RotS screenplay Sidious was disarmed by Yoda, so I think it's safe to assume both of them (Sidious and Dooku] are below Yoda in swordplay (Dooku more so). The gap between Dooku and Yoda isn't enormous though, so I fail to see what should make Sidious leagues beyond Dooku in swordsmanship.
Sidious is pretty close to Yoda in sabers. He was able to hold his own against Yoda for some time, despite barely having much room to move around in on repulsar-lift that they were fighting on, whereas Yoda, being a lot smaller, had plenty of room to jump around in to evade Sidious's attacks. Also, Yoda was fighting on the higher part of the repulsar-lift, which took away some of Yoda's disadvantage of being shorter.
The gap between Dooku and Yoda is pretty big, IMO. No, it's not big enough to where Yoda can easily blitz Dooku or anything. But the gap between them is such that even Dooku having his power's enhanced while Yoda's were diminished (there fight in DR), was still not enough to fill it in that gap.
It's the same way I see Dooku and Ventress. The gap between them isn't such that Dooku can blitz Ventress easily, but it's big enough that blinding Dooku and having the help of two other nightsisters, was still not enough to put Ventress on equal footing with Dooku.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
My argument is that both Dooku and Mace have a chance in a strict duel, 1-2/10. Are they more skilled? No. My explanation to this is inconsistencies in fights while yours is your interpretation of the Revenge of the Sith novel.
In one of your ealier posts, you said Sidious and Windu are equals and can win 5/10 each, and your arguments before that suggested that you believe Mace and Dooku to be equals in saber combat. And since you believe that Mace always fights at the same level as when he fought Palpatine, wouldn't that suggest that you believe Dooku to be an equal to Sidious in saber combat?
I don't agree that Dooku stands a chance in taking Sidious in a saber duel. Sidious is considerably faster than Dooku, considering that he took out three saber-masters in seconds, whereas Dooku was threatened by Obi Wan while similtaneously crossing blades with Anakin. Just the same, Sidious is considerably stronger than Dooku based on the fact that he can press Savage back using only one arm, whereas Dooku felt that keeping Savage away with FL was the best way to deal with Savage's strength right after being floored and disarmed by Savage's strength. Sidious has too much of of an advantage for Dooku to have any hope of defeating him, IMO. However, this does not mean that Sidious can just trounce Dooku with no effort at all.
It's clear that you don't want to accept that vaapad may have allowed Windu to reach a higher level during his fight with Sidious, but there is no way in arguing that Sidious' speed was overwhelming for Windu during the opening of their fight, despite Sidious having three other jedi to deal with, until they reached the chancellor's office. And considering that Windu and Dooku seemed pretty equal in speed from start to finish of their fight (seeing how neither could gain an advantage over the other), it would seem that if Sidious attacked Dooku the same way he attacked Windu, that his speed would be overwhelming for Dooku as well. So how would Dooku get out of that situation? Am I to assume that Sidious is going to slow down for Dooku? Or amm I suppose to believe that some inconsistency might just kick in, and Dooku start to match Sidious, as it did with Mace?
But, yeah, I agree this debate is pointless, and I been through it with others numerous times, so I think this will be my last post on the subject.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.He lifted his blade, and beckoned.
Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.
As you see, he drew on the force to replenish himself right before Anakin hit his pristine clarity.
The fight forehand didn't effect him. When he replenished himself he was fresh as new and it's not implied he replenished himself during mid-fight against Anakin.
Okay, then you don't know what force reserves are then. That IS what Dooku called upon to replenish himself and get his stamina back up to 100%. What you're fail to understand.. is that nobody has 100% force reserves that never ends. Once dooku used some of his to replenish himself.. he had that less to call upon when Anakin was raining down his strikes upon him. Understand now? The first fight DID have a lasting effect on him
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Surely, you don't mean TK kenobi and kicking Anakin is stomping do you?
How was that not a stomping?
He crippled them both together in one damn move!
How can anyone whose supposedly a level 8 himself possibly stomp 2 level 8's together? That makes no sense at all.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku looked inferior to Yoda.. EVEN WHEN enhanced by the DS Nexus.Dooku IS inferior to Sids
DOoku lost to Anakin
All of these guys are a level 9.
Pretty easy to convlude he's not a 9. He's an elite 8. 8.9 even.
That's like saying Sidious lost to Mace. And Sidious looked inferior to Yoda even when he had the high ground. Both of those guys are level 9's, therefore Sidious can't be a 9.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How was that not a stomping?He crippled them both together in one damn move!
How can anyone whose supposedly a level 8 himself possibly stomp 2 level 8's together? That makes no sense at all.
That's like saying Sidious lost to Mace. And Sidious looked inferior to Yoda even when he had the high ground. Both of those guys are level 9's, therefore Sidious can't be a 9.
It's not a stomping because THEY HAD HIM ON THE DEFENSIVE the whole fight... He was under a barrage and it was taxing him. He had to call on his guards to try and seperate them from the onslaught they were laying on him. That can never be a STOMPING. Furhter, the move you reference DIDN'T incapacitate Anakin.. it only did to Kenobi... Just because you TK somebody doesn't you mean stomped them. That would be like me saying Yoda stomped SIds because he TK'd him. Nope doesn't work that way DP and you know it.
Dooku isn't a 9... I gave him a 8.99999999999 but he's not a nine unless we want to move everybody else up the scale.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's not a stomping because THEY HAD HIM ON THE DEFENSIVE the whole fight...
So what if he's fighting defensively against 2 opponents? Fighting them both off with just 1 sword no less.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He had to call on his guards to try and seperate them from the onslaught they were laying on him.
What? You'll have to point me to the scene where Dooku shouts "Guards help me!"
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furhter, the move you reference DIDN'T incapacitate Anakin..
Yes it did. He was helpless for a good 10 seconds able to do nothing but watch Kenobi get smashed around.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That would be like me saying Yoda stomped SIds because he TK'd him.
Don't be silly.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku isn't a 9... I gave him a 8.99999999999 but he's not a nine unless we want to move everybody else up the scale.
The guy COMPLETELY humiliated 2 level 8's together. He's also fought very evenly with 2 different level 9's. How can he not be a 9?
Anyway I find it funny your willing to give him a 8.999999999, but you just can't give him that extra 0.1111111111 LOL
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what if he's fighting defensively against 2 opponents? Fighting them both off with just 1 sword no less.What? You'll have to point me to the scene where Dooku shouts "Guards help me!"
Yes it did. He was helpless for a good 10 seconds able to do nothing but watch Kenobi get smashed around.
Don't be silly.
The guy COMPLETELY humiliated 2 level 8's together. He's also fought very evenly with 2 different level 9's. How can he not be a 9?
Anyway I find it funny your willing to give him a 8.999999999, but you just can't give him that extra 0.1111111111 LOL
The novel makes it clear he wanted and NEEDED his guards to intervene there to seperate them from the onslaught they were laying on him. you keep saying he STOMPED them.. he did NO SUCH THING. Being on the defensive the whole time.. having your force reserves depleted... wanting your guards to come in to seperate them so he could isolate one of them.. ISN'T STOMPING. Neither is all the above happening and then pulling out a TK move because you're losing the sword battle. That would be like me saying... Condit stomped GSP because he landed a kick in round 2... Yeah but he got his ass kicked the rest of the fight. Pulling out one good move doesn't mean you're stomping ANYBODY.
You can find it funny.. but I find it equally funny that you won't just concede he's a elite 8.. when he's NEVER beaten a 9 in his life.. In fact, he's lost to a 8 and looked inferior on all account to two 9's. 1+1 DOES = 2
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious is pretty close to Yoda in sabers. He was able to hold his own against Yoda for some time, despite barely having much room to move around in on repulsar-lift that they were fighting on, whereas Yoda, being a lot smaller, had plenty of room to jump around in to evade Sidious's attacks. Also, Yoda was fighting on the higher part of the repulsar-lift, which took away some of Yoda's disadvantage of being shorter.
podium*
podium*
Not repulsar-lift.