ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Started by Galan00735 pages

1.) It's rather foolish to claim that Dooku's force reserves were "depleted". Neither the film or the novelization allude to such. In fact, any time Dooku's level of force power diminished(which ONLY happened when Anakin bombarded him, btw) he was able to open up his being and gather force energy from throughout the universe to replenish/boost him:

"[Dooku] called upon the Force, gathering it to himself and wrapping himself within it. He breathed it in and held it whirling inside his heart, clenching down upon it until he could feel the spin of the galaxy around him. Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life until Darth Sidious had shown him that it had been his all along. The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center. He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will."

"[Dooku] gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

"With all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku[...]"

Thus when Anakin went 't3h z0n3', Dooku was still at his peak levels.

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2.) The part of the novelization in which Dooku "needed" the guards to intervene is non-canon, because it does not mesh with the film.

Excerpt from the novel:
"With a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat. "Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!" Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets. Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids."

The film's depiction of said events:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIkpRkgaZk
(starts at 1:26)

As you can see, Dooku never shouts "Guards!", nor does Anakin block any blaster fire from the droids in the film. So again: the novel's description of that portion of the battle isn't canon.

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3.) Kenobi was a complete non-factor during that battle. Dooku casually dismissed him(in both the novel and film) each and every time he entered the fray. Heck, at one point Dooku blocked the simultaneous strikes of Anakin and Kenobi with a single-handed block of his own(implying that he was stronger than two level 8's):

That said, the [only] reason Anakin won is because he was able to tap into a great portion of his 'Chosen-One-Christ-Power' while, most importantly, maintaining clarity of mind-- and that clarity of mind in conjunction with focus of his raw power is why beginning-of-film/'t3h z0n3' Anakin>>end-of-film Anakin/Vader.

"But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame. When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back. When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside. His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell. In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win."

Anakin may have started that battle as a level 8, but by the time he unlocked his Christ Power and killed Dooku(who, again, was amped with universal force energies) his skillset, and overall power as a duelist, had increased to the best we've ever seen in SW, imo. That's why I, personally, put him over the likes of Yoda and Palpatine as a swordsman. He was Godly.

I don't know what you tried to do there buddy... but let's correct a few points....

1. First, dooku replenished himself with the force before he fought Anakin as you stated. But how you can said replenishment didn't tap his force reserves? That is EXACTLY what it does. No Jedi or Sith has unlimited force reserves. Thus, when he HAD TO DO SO before fighting Anakin, that decreased what he could call upon at a later point. There is no disputing that nor getting around that. The ONLY way to say it didn't diminish his force reserves is to claim he has unlimited force reserves and I certainly hope you're not claiming that.

2. Second it's not NON canon because it doesn't conflict with the film at all. Somebody not blocking blaster fire isn't grounds for a scene to be thrown out because it doesn't show exactly that in the film. The film shows Kenobi deflecting most of the fire.. but we can't see Anakin in portions of that scene.. thus he very well could've done that. Next, him not shouting anything in the movie again doesn't make it non canon. . There has to be a direct CONFLICT. That would mean dooku saying he doesn't need the guards and the novel having him call the guards. The novel gives IN DEPTH perspective on what people are thinking and doing that isn't elaborated on in the movie. That is what the novel does. Dooku not calling on them doesn't invalidate the novel. In that case we would have to throw out a hundreds pages form the novel that never has the characters expressing what the novel is saying. Doesn't work that way... there has to be a direct conflict. Dooku not saying something isn't a direct conflict. Thus it's not non canon.

lastly, I don't believe Anakin was the best ever in that scene.. but that is neither here nor there. Dooku was simply taxed from the previous fight and had to call on his force reserves thus depleting them. Which would mean he deosn't have as much to call upon. He underestimated Anakin which Gillard also states... Plus his style is made to overpower dooku's.. we saw Kenobi take MUCH more punishment and not falter.. Dooku style is susceptible to powerful agressive strikes. Those are why it happened. Yes Anakin was awesome in that scene and a top duelist.. but the bst ever.. nah imo

What force reserves are you referring to? The UNIVERSE? Because THAT was Dooku's reserve. If his powers became depleted, he simply gathered force energies from across the entire universe to replenish/amp his powers. He did this multiple times during the battle. When Anakin slew Dooku, he[Dooku] had JUST gathered said universal energies, making him as powerful as ever by proxy. This is unarguable.

The novel states that Dooku called for the guards. The novel states Anakin blocked multiple bursts of blaster fire from the droids prior to Kenobi flaying them. We didn't see or hear either of those events happen in the film(and there were no cut-scenes), therefore they are non-canon. Simple.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can find it funny.. but I find it equally funny that you won't just concede he's a elite 8..

Why would I concede to a point you haven't proven. In fact I and others have pretty solidly disproven if anything.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
when he's NEVER beaten a 9 in his life..

LOL Nor has Sidious. But Dooku has stomped 2 8's together which is pretty damning evidence of him being > 8.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In fact, he's lost to a 8 and looked inferior on all account to two 9's. 1+1 DOES = 2

Anakin was not an 8 when he beat Dooku!

One of those who Dooku apparently looked inferior to was Yoda whose clearly an elite 9 and has been described as the best sworsman in the Order.

The other was Mace who he's never looked inferior to. Like ever. In fact he's been flat out stated to have beaten Mace in the past so your wrong anyway.

Originally posted by Galan007

Pretty damning evidence right there that not only is Dooku > 8, but also that Makashi really isn't weak against Djem So.

I thought they were pretending to use ataru at start before they switched back to their standard forms.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Dooku has stomped 2 8's together which is pretty damning evidence of him being > 8.

I wouldn’t call that stomping, but I agree Dooku is most probably a 9.
Originally posted by axel_jovan

Yoda 9.9
Sidious 9.7
ZonE Anakin 9.5
Mace 9.1 (but when Vaapad kicks in to its fullest, he goes up a bit)
Dooku 9.1

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The other was Mace who he's never looked inferior to. Like ever. In fact he's been flat out stated to have beaten Mace in the past so your wrong anyway.

I’m not sure how their sparring matches at an unspecified point in time can be treated as a yardstick for their performances in their prime.
Moreover, as I remember the quote only says that Dooku managed to win. It does not say if it was a win in 1 of 2 or 1 of 20 fights./shrug

Anakin when fighting Dooku in RotS: 9.7
Yoda: 9.5
Sidious: 9.4
Dooku: 9.2
Mace: 9.2

Wait, what? Stomping? Dooku stomped Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS? ...But Sidious didn't stomp the Zabraks on Mandalore?

Wow, the Dooku spin machine really has been reactivated. I sense Janus and Nai's involvement....

Who said Sidious didn't stomp the brothers? He completely ragdolled them.

Unless people have been misattributing the quote, the same gentleman who once persistently argued that Sidious was given the fight of his life by the brothers, equaled by Maul alone, is now saying Dooku stomped Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS.

I suppose you're refering to DARTH POWER.

I wasn't around then.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I’m not sure how their sparring matches at an unspecified point in time can be treated as a yardstick for their performances in their prime.
Moreover, as I remember the quote only says that Dooku managed to win. It does not say if it was a win in 1 of 2 or 1 of 20 fights./shrug
That's why it's best to use the other sources which outright state(or depict) CW/RotS-era Mace and Dooku as equals. Personal opinion does not supersede canonicity-- and multiple canon sources have made it abundantly clear that Dooku=Mace. That said, if Mace starts at a level 9, then Dooku must also start at a level 9 by proxy.

As I've said before: a level 8 duelist(where some rank Dooku) simply isn't going to be able to contend with Yoda in a prolonged battle-- I don't even see how that can be argued, tbh. If you recall, even Palpatine himself(a confirmed level 9 swordsman) was ultimately disarmed in a prolonged saber battle with Yoda. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
That's why it's best to use the other sources which outright state(or depict) CW/RotS-era Mace and Dooku as equals. Personal opinion does not supersede canonicity-- and multiple canon sources have made it abundantly clear that Dooku=Mace. That said, if Mace starts at a level 9, then Dooku must also start at a level 9 by proxy.
.
Well....yeah. That's why I have them both at low-level 9.

Originally posted by Galan007
What force reserves are you referring to? The UNIVERSE? Because THAT was Dooku's reserve. If his powers became depleted, he simply gathered force energies from across the entire universe to replenish/amp his powers. He did this multiple times during the battle. When Anakin slew Dooku, he[Dooku] had JUST gathered said universal energies, making him as powerful as ever by proxy. This is unarguable.

The novel states that Dooku called for the guards. The novel states Anakin blocked multiple bursts of blaster fire from the droids prior to Kenobi flaying them. We didn't see or hear either of those events happen in the film(and there were no cut-scenes), therefore they are non-canon. Simple.

This makes ZERO logical sense buddy... Yoda has shown fatigue... Dooku has shown fatigue... Sids has shown fatigue... They don't have UNLIMITED force reserves. If they did they would never ever get fatigued.. yet we've seen this happen numerous upon numerous times.. even with the top force players in the mythos. Thus, we can safely assume dooku doesn't have unlimited force reserves.. thus him having to call upon some to replenish himself.. means he'll have less to call upon later when Anakin is taxing him. Simple

There has to be a direct conflict.. there is ZERO direct conflict here. As i stated, a conflict would be Dooku saying he doesn't need the guards to anybody or somethig along those lines. NOTHING like that is said thus there is no direct conflict. The novle expands on ideas and thoughts and actions that wasn't shown in the movie. Are you submitting that we throw out hundreds of pages of the novel that show thoughts and dialogue not mentioned in the movie? Is that your stance? I don't think it is. The guards were in the movie .. the guards were in the novel... The novel expands upon WHY they were there and entered the battle. Simple, it's canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's why it's best to use the other sources which outright state(or depict) CW/RotS-era Mace and Dooku as equals. Personal opinion does not supersede canonicity-- and multiple canon sources have made it abundantly clear that Dooku=Mace. That said, if Mace starts at a level 9, then Dooku must also start at a level 9 by proxy.

As I've said before: a level 8 duelist(where some rank Dooku) simply isn't going to be able to contend with Yoda in a prolonged battle-- I don't even see how that can be argued, tbh. If you recall, even Palpatine himself(a confirmed level 9 swordsman) was ultimately disarmed in a prolonged saber battle with Yoda. /shrug

The ONLY evidence is a sparring match and the DR quotes.. nothing more.. let's not act like it's said over and over again. The sparring match doesn't count as evidence as I have debunked that as evidence long ago. The next quote is irrelevant because it takes about Dooku overcoming him in battle. Vague and with no context behind it. Such a quote could be made about Morales beating Pac.. he's overcame him in battle.. Yet that isn't taking into account that Pac has won MORE times. So, thus that statement doesn't mean much of anything as Mace could've won more.. not to mention the fact that it could be sparring that is being referred to.. which again is dismissed. Then what we are left with is ONE quote and ONE quote only talking about Mace being Dooku's equal on neutral ground. Hardly enough... Hyperbolic quotes don't and can't contend with ACTUAL battle feats. Mace has beaten somebody SUPERIOR IN EVERY WAY to Dooku. He has actually beaten a confirmed 9.. Dooku NEVER HAS.. Not only has he not beaten a level 9.. he's looked inferior to level 9's each time he's battled them. 1 +1 = 2

Lastly, we've HAVE seen level 8 compete with level 9's in a prolonged battle. That is EXACTLY what Kenobi did with Anakin... So actually we've seen that very thing and confirms how a level 8 dooku could compete with Yoda in an even shorter battle than the one I mentioned.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why would I concede to a point you haven't proven. In fact I and others have pretty solidly disproven if anything.

LOL Nor has Sidious. But Dooku has stomped 2 8's together which is pretty damning evidence of him being > 8.

Anakin was not an 8 when he beat Dooku!

One of those who Dooku apparently looked inferior to was Yoda whose clearly an elite 9 and has been described as the best sworsman in the Order.

The other was Mace who he's never looked inferior to. Like ever. In fact he's been flat out stated to have beaten Mace in the past so your wrong anyway.

Pretty damning evidence right there that not only is Dooku > 8, but also that Makashi really isn't weak against Djem So.

Just stop DP.. there was ZERO stomping going on there.. NOT AN OUNCE OF STOMPING. I cited real world examples that show there was no stopping. If anything it was a desperate move by Dooku before he was going to get overwhelmed. Nothign more, and no stomping. If that is what you believe indicates a stomping... than Yoda stomped Sids.

Mace beating Sidious in no way makes him the superior combatant.

It does n't make Sidious the superior combatant,either.
The Force intervened through Anakin. So imho stalemate.....

The Force is the superior combatant.....

Sidious has a better showing against Yoda than Dooku though, and Dooku is more or less an equal to Mace.

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