Kit Fisto vs Shaak Ti

Originally posted by Galan007
It does imply that she is a better duelist, though. She also used the force against him at one point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whXq4UYRDRc

Conversely, Shaak Ti and Mundi faltered when they tried going blow-for-blow with Grievous. Had they used the force against him (like many other Jedi have) they likely could have prevailed. GG has no counter to the force.

Well I am talking about all-outs.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Battered"? Lol. Koth didn't gain any sort of advantage until he used the force.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Sbkpigyo4o

He held his own in Sabers with a wounded arm, and completely floored him with the Force. There was nothing stopping Mundi and Shaak Ti using force attacks. But IIRC that series showed Grievous as able to dodge/tank most TK attacks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I am talking about all-outs.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He held his own in Sabers with a wounded arm, and completely floored him with the Force.

I feel like CG Grievous' skills are tremendously underrated around here. Why on earth people believe he was [unofficially] depowered in the CG show is completely beyond me..? Almost all of his best saber/battle feats (against credible Jedi, mind you) occurred in the CG-- not the cartoon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There was nothing stopping Mundi and Shaak Ti using force attacks. But IIRC that series showed Grievous as able to dodge/tank most TK attacks.

I think it's because he seemed for formidible in the cartoon maybe.

Originally posted by Galan007

Cool. Koth's not the first Jedi to gain an advantage over Grievous via force attacks. Heck, Grievous had Kenobi himself beaten, until Kenobi TK'd him:

Yeah except Koth wasn't losing the Saber fight. He held his own in Sabers despite having a wounded arm.

Originally posted by Galan007
I feel like CG Grievous' skills are tremendously underrated around here. Why on earth people believe he was [unofficially] depowered in the CG show is completely beyond me..? Almost all of his best saber/battle feats (against credible Jedi, mind you) occurred in the CG-- not the cartoon.

No nothing in the CG compares to defeating 5 Jedi together. I think the CG showed that pretty much any high level Master would take him in an all out.

But I do agree he's always been a threat in Pure Sabers and still is.

Originally posted by Galan007
Only one TK attack was used during that battle, and Grievous managed to dodge it. However, we know GG wasn't able to dodge every force attack in the cartoon, otherwise Mace wouldn't have been able to crush his chest.

Like you said TK was used in the CWMini but to no avail. It only took one Tk shot for Kenobi and Koth to get the better of him.

IIRC Mace crushed him when he was standing on the ship platform trying to escape with Palpatine.

Look I still think Grievous is a threat to almost all Jedi in Sabers. But if you honestly think GG's performance did not decrease in the CG show and that we can compare feats then I guess you believe Ashoka is > than Mundi + Shaak Ti together?

Talking of comparing feats between the CW Mini to the CG show the difference wasn't just down to Grievous's prowess. Mace would also be >>> Dooku in the Force too because he destroyed hundereds of droids with TK alone (something he seemingly couldn't do in AOTC) whilst Dooku got caught by 30 pirates???

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I think it's because he seemed for formidible in the cartoon maybe.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except Koth wasn't losing the Saber fight. He held his own in Sabers despite having a wounded arm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No nothing in the CG compares to defeating 5 Jedi together. .

Remember what Dooku taught him: "If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise and intimidation on your side... For if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory."

When GG bested those Jedi, he had ALL of those elements on his side-- and he was primarily facing featless fodder. Impressive showing for the good General, but certainly not beyond what his CG self would be capable of under those same circumstances, imho.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But I do agree he's always been a threat in Pure Sabers and still is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like you said TK was used in the CWMini but to no avail. It only took one Tk shot for Kenobi and Koth to get the better of him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Look I still think Grievous is a threat to almost all Jedi in Sabers. But if you honestly think GG's performance did not decrease in the CG show and that we can compare feats then I guess you believe Ashoka is > than Mundi + Shaak Ti together?

Answer this: What did Shaak-Ti or Mundi do before their battle with Grievous that leads you to believe Ashoka wouldn't be able to best them in sabers?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Talking of comparing feats between the CW Mini to the CG show the difference wasn't just down to Grievous's prowess. Mace would also be >>> Dooku in the Force too because he destroyed hundereds of droids with TK alone (something he seemingly couldn't do in AOTC) whilst Dooku got caught by 30 pirates???

Ohhh I totally agree on that.. I've argued with many on here that GG is just as powerful as he was during the mini. Many were trying to claim he got a recton of sorts which I totally disagree with. It could just be down to GG fighting superior people now days than he once did.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ohhh I totally agree on that.. I've argued with many on here that GG is just as powerful as he was during the mini. Many were trying to claim he got a recton of sorts which I totally disagree with. It could just be down to GG fighting superior people now days than he once did.

As The Ultimate Visual Guide confirms, the Clone Wars Cartoon is 100% canon. Thus, all of GG's feats in said cartoon are 100% canon by proxy.

Yet in it, *many* characters are vastly more powerful. Mace never fights like he does in that anywhere else.

It may be canon events but it's exaggerated as heck.

And, outside of that, Shaak Ti's got an impressive record.

Originally posted by Galan007

Conversely, Shaak Ti and Mundi faltered when they tried going blow-for-blow with Grievous. Had they used the force against him (like many other Jedi have) they likely could have prevailed. GG has no counter to the force.

One of the Jedi did try and force-push him during that fight and missed because he got out of the way.

Originally posted by Galan007

What had any of those Jedi done before they battled Grievous that makes you think CG Grievous wouldn't have been able to defeat them? The simple fact that they were dubbed "Jedi", and were armed with light sabers doesn't cut it for me.

Remember what Dooku taught him: "If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise and intimidation on your side... For if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory."

When GG bested those Jedi, he had ALL of those elements on his side-- and he was primarily facing featless fodder. Impressive showing for the good General, but certainly not beyond what his CG self would be capable of under those same circumstances, imho.

His skill level hasn't canonically decreased all. That is only your opinion. If GG's skills had decreased, then he wouldn't still be able to contend with top-tier Jedi. It just seems like his skills decreased to you, because the caliber of his opponents has increased substantially. The Jedi finally wised-up and stopped sending fodder Knights for Grievous to slay.

Remember what Dooku says to him in "Lair of Grievous"? At the end when he thinks he Grievous bested Fisto, he says something like "Vicotry over the young Knight and clones was expected, but to defeat a Jedi Master??"

Dooku at least seemed to think it would be a new level for Grievous to defeat a Jedi Master in that episode. So I doubt his CW Mini feats were just because Mundi and Shaak Ti are almost non-factors compared to Koth and Ashoka.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ohhh I totally agree on that.. I've argued with many on here that GG is just as powerful as he was during the mini. Many were trying to claim he got a recton of sorts which I totally disagree with. It could just be down to GG fighting superior people now days than he once did.

You've always argued that the new series has heavily downgraded Grievous, and wouldn't accept Fisto, Koth and Ventress beating him without all of us acknowledging that.

''I mean It's not that big a challenge when Kenobi in the movie Revenge of the Sith finally he gets Grievous on one-to-one terms''.

''It's not the sensibility that people got, you know, unfortunately or not in the previous Micro series where they're all hiding in a ship worried about Grievous is gonna come and stomp on them.''

''If you think of a really well-trained Jedi Knight, that’s not really a possibility, they are trained against fear, they’re trained to control their fear and he ultimately is just a droid.''

''That's not to say he's not a threat. He'll fight you with his lightsabers and gut you with his gun when you're not looking. He's not gonna play fair. He's gonna do whatever he has to do to win and that's what makes Grievous kind of a challenge for the Jedi, who are used to very elegant fighting and fighting on a very fair level.''

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
''I mean It's not that big a challenge when Kenobi in the movie Revenge of the Sith finally he gets Grievous on one-to-one terms''.

[B]''It's not the sensibility that people got, you know, unfortunately or not in the previous Micro series where they're all hiding in a ship worried about Grievous is gonna come and stomp on them.''

''If you think of a really well-trained Jedi Knight, that’s not really a possibility, they are trained against fear, they’re trained to control their fear and he ultimately is just a droid.''

''That's not to say he's not a threat. He'll fight you with his lightsabers and gut you with his gun when you're not looking. He's not gonna play fair. He's gonna do whatever he has to do to win and that's what makes Grievous kind of a challenge for the Jedi, who are used to very elegant fighting and fighting on a very fair level.'' [/B]

Yep those were Filoni's words on how Grievous is his CW series compared to the original mini-series. In an old forcecast interview I believe.

So we shouldn't really compare Fisto's performance against GG in the new series to Mundi and Ti's performance against the same opponent in the original mini-series Imho.

Originally posted by Q99
Yet in it, *many* characters are vastly more powerful. Mace never fights like he does in that anywhere else.

It may be canon events but it's exaggerated as heck.

And, outside of that, Shaak Ti's got an impressive record.

Anyway, what are Shaak Ti's feats?

Originally posted by Q99
One of the Jedi did try and force-push him during that fight and missed because he got out of the way.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Remember what Dooku says to him in "Lair of Grievous"? At the end when he thinks he Grievous bested Fisto, he says something like "Vicotry over the young Knight and clones was expected, but to defeat a Jedi Master??"

He basically said that GG's chances of defeating high-level Jedi were nil, unless he had all of those elements on his side--- and he had all of those elements on his side when he tooled the 5 Jedi. Put CG Grievous in the *same* scenario(ie. where he's got fear/surprise/intimidation on his side), and he'd tool that same Jedi team just as easily, imo. None of those Jedi had feats beyond mediocrity back then. They were fodder, and GG treated them as such.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
''I mean It's not that big a challenge when Kenobi in the movie Revenge of the Sith finally he gets Grievous on one-to-one terms''.

[B]''It's not the sensibility that people got, you know, unfortunately or not in the previous Micro series where they're all hiding in a ship worried about Grievous is gonna come and stomp on them.''

''If you think of a really well-trained Jedi Knight, that’s not really a possibility, they are trained against fear, they’re trained to control their fear and he ultimately is just a droid.''

''That's not to say he's not a threat. He'll fight you with his lightsabers and gut you with his gun when you're not looking. He's not gonna play fair. He's gonna do whatever he has to do to win and that's what makes Grievous kind of a challenge for the Jedi, who are used to very elegant fighting and fighting on a very fair level.''[/B]

The statement certainly does not imply that CG Grievous is any less powerful/skillful than his cartoon self, though.

They aren't fearful of him because he isn't as big a threat as he was back in the Micro Series where htey ''were hiding in a ship worried about Grievous is gonna come and stomp on them.''

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
They aren't fearful of him because he isn't as big a threat as he was back in the Micro Series

The real reason the Jedi weren't as fearful of Grievous in the CG/film was given in the very statement you posted:
"If you think of a really well-trained Jedi Knight, that’s not really a possibility, they are trained against fear, they’re trained to control their fear and he ultimately is just a droid."

Any noteworthy Jedi is trained to control their fear, as fear is the path to the dark side! That's why Filoni didn't portray Jedi as terrified feebs whenever they confronted Grievous in the CG-- such emotions contradict the Jedi religion entirely.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Remember what Dooku says to him in "Lair of Grievous"? At the end when he thinks he Grievous bested Fisto, he says something like "Vicotry over the young Knight and clones was expected, but to defeat a Jedi Master??"

Dooku at least seemed to think it would be a new level for Grievous to defeat a Jedi Master in that episode. So I doubt his CW Mini feats were just because Mundi and Shaak Ti are almost non-factors compared to Koth and Ashoka.

You've always argued that the new series has heavily downgraded Grievous, and wouldn't accept Fisto, Koth and Ventress beating him without all of us acknowledging that.

Which is true... But there was no recton of the character was the point. He hasn't been shown as the same monster he was in the mini.. but I never said his skills were downgraded.. I complained that they were being true to G.G. in some cases. This happens though.. happens with Supeman, Thor etc etc.. they have low showings that are unfortunate but that doesn't mean they have been downgraded. Even then, as pointed out by Galan... some of that is due to the calibur of foe he's faced in the new series.

That makes no sense though. Unless you can prove Mundi/Ti were not trained to control their fear. In the episode only Sha'a Gi, if I remember correctly, was ''worried about getting stomped on''. The other Jedi were ready for the battle yet got destroyed by Grievous' insane moves which he has only done in the OCW.

It does make sense, as that is exactly what Filoni said. You're just adding your opinion to his statement.

All the Jedi except Sha'a Gi controlled their fear just fine, so no.

Per the quote you posted, Filoni's intention was clear: any Jedi who faced Grievous in the CG would not let their fear get the better of them(like we saw happen to a few Jedi during the cartoon), because Jedi are trained to control their fear, and never let it get the best of them. Why? Because "fear is the path to the dark side." - Yoda.

Like it or not, that is what Filoni said. srsly