Mace and Dooku vs. Yoda and Obi (Sabers only)

Originally posted by Arhael
Speed depends on skill and capabilities, which grows overtime just like power.

There's absolutely zero proof that Maul grew more than Sidious did.

Originally posted by Arhael
When exactly Opress cannot see Sidious? He was fast enough to block all Sidious' saber attacks and lost due to kicks, which he have always had hard time defending against.

Originally posted by Arhael
These are your conclusions.

Originally posted by Arhael
TFiloni took the moves from fight with Windu and expended on it. If anything, Sidious demonstrated better performance against brothers than Windu.

Originally posted by Intrepid37 Plagueis mentions that he can feel Sidious power ''growing''. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia confirms that when Sidious killed Plagueis, he grew too.

There's absolutely zero proof that Maul grew more than Sidious did.

This only backs up my argument. Opress has no speed feats suggesting that he is faster than TPM Maul, and Sidious was far faster than TPM Maul.

Please. If you want to say TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul because he grew in power, I can just as easily turn that around and say the same for Sidious.

For Anakin fight between Windu and Sidious is faster than eye could see. Yet, Anakin is given level 9 combat prowess along Yoda, Sidious and Windu.

Point?

Originally posted by Arhael
The proof is Maul's performance against Sidious in TCW. Your assumption that Sidious did not fight at full speed has zero evidence.

You need to prove that TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul in order for your argument to work.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, it doesn't. Opress was fast enough to blitz a master and padawan before training with Dooku.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku failed to blitz Opress and had to rely on Force attacks. Opress was driving back both Kenobi and Anakin.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Anakin is considered to be the fastest Jedi in the Order by Windu.

Originally posted by Arhael
which doesn't actually prove that there is significant speed difference.

How isn't it a ''significant'' speed difference? Maul's eyes couldn't track the blade, couldn't even see it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Bane was attacked by a Jedi faster than the eye could see, yet, in the same fight he was able to fight the same Jedi and two more opponents simultaneously.

Originally posted by Arhael
For Anakin fight between Windu and Sidious is faster than eye could see.

Originally posted by Arhael
That Sidious fought at the same speed as against Windu.

Originally posted by Intrepid37 😐
You need to prove that TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul in order for your argument to work.

Anyway, I can try.

"The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.

With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.

He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.

I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.

"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes, " I grunt.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.

But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

I will not be able to deflect the next blow. It will rend me in two. In a blur of heat and pain I see the mighty power of my Master raised against me, see the lightsaber come toward me, see my death as clearly as a bone-white moon in an ebony sky.

I lunge forward and sink my teeth into his hand. I strike like an animal, so quickly he doesn't have time to step away. I taste his blood and spit it back at him in contempt.

Yes, he will kill me. But I will die with his blood on my lips.

The lightsaber comes down. I wait for the pain and shock. I wait to die."

While the fight is solely from Maul's perspective it still leads to certain conclusions:

1. As Maul witnessed Sidious' "faster than the eye could see" performance before, he "logically" would have noticed, if Sidious was fighting slower than he normally did.

2. Reflexes of Force user are heightened, when they draw on the Force. In quote you provided Maul was scared and unwilling to fight, which means he did not use the Force to heighten his reflexes.

3. Sidious staggered during fight and wasn't fast enough to avoid getting bitten. But of course you can assume that Sidious did all of that deliberately.

4. This fight happened before Maul started learning double-bladed style. Sidious was impressed by Maul's performance, if Maul was far slower, that wouldn't make sense. Later his speed impressed even Plagues, again that wouldn't make sense, if he was far slower than Sidious.

Link?

So? Dooku isn't as fast as Sidious.

No.

😆

How isn't it a ''significant'' speed difference? Maul's eyes couldn't track the blade, couldn't even see it.

Quote?

Non canon.

Not really. If you refer to Filoni's statement, he just says that they wanted to build upon Sidious' acrobatics [if I recall correctly].

Also, Sidious' performance is described as "whirlwind of destruction", wouldn't make sense, if Sidious held back.

Originally posted by Arhael
1. As Maul witnessed Sidious' "faster than the eye could see" performance before, he "logically" would have noticed, if Sidious was fighting slower than he normally did.

Originally posted by Arhael
2. Reflexes of Force user are heightened, when they draw on the Force. In quote you provided Maul was scared and unwilling to fight, which means he did not use the Force to heighten his reflexes.

Originally posted by Arhael
3. Sidious staggered during fight and wasn't fast enough to avoid getting bitten. But of course you can assume that Sidious did all of that deliberately.

Besides:

"I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand."

Plagueis turned fully to face him. "Rather than punish him for disobedience, you praised his resolve."

"He was already humbled. I chose to leave his honor intact. I proclaimed him my myrmidon; the embodiment of the violent half of our partnership."

"Partnership?" Plagueis repeated harshly.

"His and mine; not ours."

"Regardless, you allowed him to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is."

"Did you not do the same for me?"

Plagueis's eyes reflected disappointment. "Never, Sidious. I have always been truthful with you."

Sidious bowed his head in acknowledgment. "I am not the teacher you are."

Originally posted by Arhael
4. This fight happened before Maul started learning double-bladed style.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious was impressed by Maul's performance, if Maul was far slower, that wouldn't make sense.

Originally posted by Arhael
Later his speed impressed even Plagues, again that wouldn't make sense, if he was far slower than Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
YouTube video

Originally posted by Arhael
Isn't he? Attack of the clone makes it clear that his speed is equal to Yoda's.

Originally posted by Arhael
Otherwise how would he be able to keep up with Anakin who is the fastest Jedi in the mythos, while attacked by Kenobi at the same time?

Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin is the most powerful and capable Jedi in the mythos. Speed depends on capabilities. Anakin is the most capable, tallented and trained combat for over decade. Windu's statement that he is the fastest makes sense and he is in a better position to judge than you.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jedi can't track blaster bolts or shatter guns, yet, still fast enough to anticipate and counter.

Originally posted by Arhael
For Windu attacks of Kar Vastar were blinding fast, yet, Windu was still faster.

Either way, this does not qualify. It only shows that Mace and Vastar are close in speed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Just checked it, it's not from Bane's perspective...

Originally posted by Arhael
Doesn't matter. Anakin was a passive observer as was Maul, when Sidious attacked him. During actual combat Maul uses the Force to heighten his reflexes.

Originally posted by Arhael
Can you notice any speed difference between two fights? I can't. Of course you can assume that the fight is slowed down for viewers but such assumption has no real basis.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Sidious' performance is described as "whirlwind of destruction", wouldn't make sense, if Sidious held back.

Team 2 FTW.

Kenobi is all about dragging out the fight. And while Mace or Dooku will likely be able to defeat him in a duel it will take away.

Actually, TCW Maul is likely faster than TPM Maul. During his and Savage's fight against Sidious, Maul muses that despite his increase in power since TPM, Sidious was still able to counter all his attacks. And it wouldn't make any sense if Maul was referring to his other force powers since he was relying on his blade to fight Sidious.

Other than that, I agree with you, Intrepid. The fact that Sidious blitzed two masters before they were able to react, and then Fisto seconds later while simultaneously crossing blades with Windu, makes it quite clear that Sidious wasn't fighting the brothers his fastest, considering that Maul and Savage are not too much faster than the likes of Fisto (well Savage isn't for sure). Fisto and Kenobi, based on their respective performances against Grievous, suggest that they are very much comparable in sheer speed, and there is not a huge speed difference between Obi Wan and the brothers (though I'd argue that Maul is faster than Kenobi, but it might not be by much). Furthermore, when we compare Sidious performance against Mace & the 3 other jedi to his performance against Maul and Savage, his demeanor was completely different: he was far more relaxed during his duel with the brothers, and was not nearly as aggressive. Then we have Filoni outright confirming that Sidious was enjoying his fight with the brothers, which seems to imply that Sidious was savoring his superiority over the brothers by prolonging the fight, as it would make sense that he would want to prolong his enjoyment, and based on Sidious character, that's usually what he does. Plus, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul at all, so obviously, Sidious wouldn't be fighting his hardest or drawing on the force as heavily to enhance his speed because he would be trying to avoid delivering a fatal blow to Maul with his saber.

Intrepid, after many prolong debates with Arhael, I've come to the conclusion that debating with him is a waste of time. He never admits when he is wrong.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That description is baseless. He might as well be a ''whirlwind of destruction'' while holding back his speed.

True. The hyperbolic statement "whirlwind of destruction" has no bearing on how much effort Sidious put forth to defeat the brothers. Relying on that term in order to try to prove that Sidious was not holding back, is a very desperate argument. There is just far too much evidents to suggest that Sidious was not fighting the brothers his hardest.

Like I said, Arhael just likes to argue. He will argue that the force does not drastically enhance a force users speed. Well if it didn't, then Yoda shouldn't be able to fight faster than the majority of force users, given that he can't even walk fast when he is not enhancing himself with the force.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually, TCW Maul is likely faster than TPM Maul. During his and Savage's fight against Sidious, Maul muses that despite his increase in power since TPM, Sidious was still able to counter all his attacks. And it wouldn't make any sense if Maul was referring to his other force powers since he was relying on his blade to fight Sidious.

This to me suggests that he's grown in the force (he also muses that he has grown through Talzin's resturation, so that makes sense).

Maul, in his journal, has some very good speed feats. He mentions that, in a short span of time, he has delivered ten thousands blows, he moves faster than his opponent can blink, he spins in a blur, he can take out four or five Tusken Raider in the span of an eyelash, he is faster than light, his blade is a blur of red etc.

All this is, if anything, above anything Kenobi's done.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Intrepid, after many prolong debates with Arhael, I've come to the conclusion that debating with him is a waste of time. He never admits when he is wrong.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Like I said, Arhael just likes to argue. He will argue that the force does not drastically enhance a force users speed. Well if it didn't, then Yoda shouldn't be able to fight faster than the majority of force users, given that he can't even walk fast when he is not enhancing himself with the force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul muses that, through his new power, he has become a ''more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.''

This to me suggests that he's grown in the force (he also muses that he has grown through Talzin's resturation, so that makes sense).

Do you have the full quote? It seemed to me that his thoughts were referring to his force enhanced physical combat ability, since that is what he was relying on to fight Sidious with, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for him to apply his musing to his fight with Sidious.

And yes, it does suggest that he's grown in the force, and since he is trained to enhance his speed with the force, then logically, after his increase in power, he would have more power to enhance his speed with.

And I agree that Maul is faster than Kenobi, but not by much.

Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

Can you post the full quote up to the part where he mentions how much in awe he was of Sidious' bladework.

It is the full quote. The next sentence is this:

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.

If I recall correctly, Maul then mentions how the force was effortlessly flowing through Sidious, and how he could foresee their moves before it happened.

So to me, the context of Maul's musings seem to indicate his force enhance physicality/combat prowess.

He does, and you might be right. But it could be about his boost in force power, considering he feels a ''terrible pleasure'' while he and Opress saber-locked with Sidious (at this point, they had hardly fought each other).

Either way, even if you want to argue that CW Maul is faster than TPM Maul, it in no way supports Arheal's argument considering that Sidious is confirmed to grow in power too.

The "terrible pleasure" from the text was Sidious's, not Maul's.

I know.

Also, gonna respond in the Mace v Dooku thread?

He wasn't ''unwilling to fight''. He was pumped after having destroyed assassin droids.

The fight does not qualify as proof. Sidious never attacked, he just parried.

Regardless, Sidious was attacking Maul in TCW and wasn't fast enough to outduel him or avoid getting kicked.

"I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand."

Plagueis turned fully to face him. "Rather than punish him for disobedience, you praised his resolve."

"He was already humbled. I chose to leave his honor intact. I proclaimed him my myrmidon; the embodiment of the violent half of our partnership."

"Partnership?" Plagueis repeated harshly.

"His and mine; not ours."

"Regardless, you allowed him to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is.

"Did you not do the same for me?"

Plagueis's eyes reflected disappointment. "Never, Sidious. I have always been truthful with you."

Sidious bowed his head in acknowledgment. "I am not the teacher you are."

False. In Entry 1, Maul explains how he ''powers up his double-bladed lightsaber and practice maneuvers''. The quote I provided comes from Entry 2.

As proven, Sidious made him think he was better than he was.

Quote?

He doesn't blitz him. 😬

Not really. Dark Rendezvous mentions that the ''green blade burned hotter'' indicating Yoda was faster than Dooku on Vjun.

Anakin isn't the fastest Jedi in the mythos. He is stated to be the ''fastest of his generation, perhaps of any generation''.

Mace has never stated that Anakin is the fastest. He simply says thhat he is ''arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he's still getting stronger''.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it".

I hope now you realise that it is absurd to claim that Sidious can blitz Kenobi, when even Anakin couldn't.

Jedi have been able to see starships/shuttles in slow-motion.

Quote?

Either way, this does not qualify. It only shows that Mace and Vastar are close in speed.

Eye perception might not be fast enough to properly see attacks. But it is obvious that Jedi have anticipation and can counter an attack regardless of speed.

You simply can't use this argument: Anakin never sees Sidious fighting Mace and thus cannot judge his speed.

Also, courtesy of S66, he claimed that Sidious slew masters faster than Windu could react and even backed it up by a quote from an encyclopaedia. 😄

In-movie explanations are not usable.

That description is baseless. He might as well be a ''whirlwind of destruction'' while holding back his speed.

Claiming that Sidious holds back on speed against both brothers, while Dooku wasn't fast enough to out-duel Opress alone is a blatant over-hyping.

Originally posted by Arhael
Except it woudn't make sense. Your assumption is baseless according to all Filoni's statements. He wanted to show why Sidious is the master. If Filoni portrayed holding back Sidious, we would still be clueless why he is the master.

lmao

Seriously, Arhael?

Originally posted by Arhael
He was unwilling to fight. Sidious caught him off guard, he shitted himself.

Originally posted by Arhael
He was defending and was barely fast enough to avoid attacks. And he failed to avoid getting bitten.

He tells me I am weak, not worthy of being a Sith Lord. He tells me he has misjudged me. I attempt to attack him. The ball of anger inside me turns to howling rage. It is painfully obvious that he is playing with me. He can kill me in a heartbeat. Yet something in me will not accept this, even from my Master. My life force won't allow it. I struggle on, even in the face of his laughter.

Originally posted by Arhael
Regardless, Sidious was attacking Maul in TCW and wasn't fast enough to outduel him or avoid getting kicked.

Originally posted by Arhael
In the part I highlighted Sidious himself praises Maul. In part you highlighted Plagueis makes judgement despite the fact that he did not witnes the fight and is in no position to make such judgement.

Originally posted by Arhael
Plagueis spent a long moment observing the holorecording. The Zabrak's fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding.

Originally posted by Arhael
He dodges 3 attacks and disarms him. And he finished the fight with a combo to which the Jedi failed to react. That demonstrates far superior speed and reaction. For an unarmed and untrained Force user that's even more impressive. If it is not how you define "blitz", sorry. 🙁

Even if it was, I'm not sure what your point is.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's not indication of speed. However, them evenly exchanging blows in the film is.

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

-Dark Rendezvous

It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.

Not fast enough.

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance.

-Attack of the Clones

Originally posted by Arhael
Agree, Luke might be as fast due to heritage. Or Yoda might be faster due to diminutive size. Can't tell the same about Sidious though. 😉

Originally posted by Arhael
I hope now you realise that it is absurd to claim that Sidious can blitz Kenobi, when even Anakin couldn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
Proof?

Anakin and Kenobi reacts to ships at lightspeed/sublightspeed:

Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

Originally posted by Arhael
And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, "Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected."

Originally posted by Arhael
Eye perception might not be fast enough to properly see attacks. But it is obvious that Jedi have anticipation and can counter an attack regardless of speed.

Originally posted by Arhael
That is a good example of how an author hyperballically glorifies the speed of a given character. It is still a c-canon and it is still the same character. There is no difference from the example you provided except the fact that Anakin is the fastest Jedi of his generation.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed. But it is not about explanation, it is about demonstration. Sidious demonstrated the same speed as in film as well as far greater variety of techniques.

Originally posted by Arhael
Except it woudn't make sense. Your assumption is baseless according to all Filoni's statements. He wanted to show why Sidious is the master. If Filoni portrayed holding back Sidious, we would still be clueless why he is the master.

Originally posted by Arhael
Claiming that Sidious holds back on speed against both brothers, while Dooku wasn't fast enough to out-duel Opress alone is a blatant over-hyping.

Yoda's slightly slower than Palpatine, but not enough that he cannot disarm him. Anakin's slower than Palpatine as well, as he couldn't see him, yet he could perceive the shadow in the force. Mace only fought as fast as Palpatine for that one duel ( the novelization is written by the same author who wrote shatterpoint, so it's not like he didn't know his own character )