Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Does Sidious move faster than a Blaster Bolt? If not there's no reason to assume Maul can not react to him.
Plagueis also moved as a blur for a droid that is able to dodge blasterbolts, and Sidious has moved at same speed as Plagueis.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fact is we have 7 Star Wars films now and an animated series. And at no point in all of higher canon is any Jedi or Sith been shown to be too fast to even see. Especially not by other Jedi/Sith.
Sidious has fought the brothers and Yoda.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Even if what you prove is true within the context of TPM time and in the context of C-Canon. Even that is not enough to overwrite a fight shown in T-Canon which takes place 10 years later in continuity.
Really, you simply can't refer to the fight in TCW and use that as proof that the brothers have enough speed to contend with Sidious. It is ambiguous to only use the visual fight in TCW. You must prove that Sidious did not hold back immensly: prove to me a single time when Maul has been able to see Sidious when Sidious was not holding back.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Especially when we have the Supervising Director of that show flat out confirm that Savage Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than the 3 Council members who Sidious blitzed. Given that your going have to give much better evidence that Sidious can blitzed Maul within a second.
What does this have to do with anything?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Right so where your proof that Sidious's combat abilities improved at all since TPM? We canonically know that Maul's did.
Also, TPM Sidious=RotS Sidious?
😬
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As was the power he felt in TCW time period.
Which also suggests Sidious held back.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious was confirmed in the Dark Side source book to have "barely deflected his blows" once Maul was in a rage enhanced state.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not to mention you seem to be ignoring that this whole fight took place after Maul had been fighting and starving for days. Or was it weeks?
Originally posted by Arhael
Against your opinion that Maul is not as fast due to perception.
Originally posted by Arhael
lol
Nice try. The text continues with Maul getting angrier and angrier and then:I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.
Originally posted by Arhael
The only thing that is painfully obvious is that you have different opinion.
Originally posted by Arhael
You expect a Sith to admit he nearly died?
Originally posted by Arhael
Plagueis was observing Maul fighting droids...
Originally posted by Arhael
That Opress fast enough not to get blitzed by anyone.
Fast =/= Fast enough not to get blitzed.
Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn't. First quote might, also, suggest outskilling/overpowering/driving back.
The text specifically notes that their blades clashed together in ''a lace of fire'', and that the green one burned hotter.
It is quite obvious.
Originally posted by Arhaelhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ_eu5BxAsU
Second quote is non-canon. Dooku in film did not make a single step back, they evenly exchanged blows circling around each other with Dooku finishing on the offensive.
About 1:45 and again 1:58.
Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku is not faster than Kenobi.
Originally posted by Arhael
Skywalker is the fastest Jedi of his generation, which is author's narration. If Kenobi doesn't get blitzed by someone who is faster than Yoda, he cannot be blitzed by anyone.
Yoda is faster than Anakin:
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku
Originally posted by Arhael
It's ridiculous to assume that they have reaction/perception faster than sub-light speed.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vastor's attacks were blinding fast for Windu, which means he couldn't percept them properly just like Maul couldn't - Sidious.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, lets not forget about the fact that Kit Fisto didn't get blitzed, you gonna claim he is faster than Kenobi?
Originally posted by Arhael
My point is that you assume too much from a quote, where Maul is not even fighting Sidious.
Originally posted by Arhael
No, he didn't. 🙂
Originally posted by Arhael
Character cannot dominate, if he holds back.
According to you?
Originally posted by Arhael
Nowhere Dooku is confirmed to be faster than Kenobi.
Originally posted by Arhael
Dodging Opress does not suggest he is faster. It's a matter of skill. Ventress demonstrated even more impressive dodging against Opress, yet, when she had lightsaber, she got an elbow in the back of her scull.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, when Sidious tried to pierce Maul's abdomen on at least two occasions, Maul dodged it. 😉
Originally posted by Intrepid37
In Plagueis Sidious deflects blasterbolts from an army, if I recall correctly.Plagueis also moved as a blur for a droid that is able to dodge blasterbolts, and Sidious has moved at same speed as Plagueis.
Oh he moved like a blur? You mean like Kenobi and Qui-Gon did in the opening scene of TPM?
Point is yes Jedi and Sith can move fast. But they don't move faster than blaster bolts, and not properly perceiving with their eyes has never stopped them reacting.
You only have to go to Luke's training in the Original Star Wars to understand that. "Your eye can deceive you. Don't trust them."
Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is completely irrelevant. There are only two beings in the movies/CW, Yoda and Sidious, that have the speed to blitz. Yoda has fought Dooku twice and Sidious once, all of them who are fast enough not to get blitzed.Sidious has fought the brothers and Yoda.
The fact that Yoda didn't blitzed Dooku and Sidious didin't blitzed Mace and Dooku didn't blitzed Kenobi, and Sidious didn't blitzed the Maul bros, just shows that the more powerful Jedi/Sith are not just going to be speed blitzed.
Let alone Maul and Opress simultaneously.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
It doesn't overwrite it, it adds onto it.Really, you simply can't refer to the fight in TCW and use that as proof that the brothers have enough speed to contend with Sidious. It is ambiguous to only use the visual fight in TCW. You must prove that Sidious did not hold back immensly: prove to me a single time when Maul has been able to see Sidious when Sidious was not holding back.
Well you've got that the wrong way around completely.
It's not up to me to prove Sidious wasn't immensely holding back. It's up to you to prove it. Of course I can refer to TCW fight as my primary source. It was a fight that took place in a much higher form of canon, and showing the characters at a completely different point in time with different power sets.
You can't just ignore that because Maul saw Sidious as a blur one time.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The quote from the Encyclopedia. Plagueis dies shortly after Maul does.Also, TPM Sidious=RotS Sidious?
😬
Yeah so wheres your evidence Sidious became more combat effective since TPM like we know Maul did?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you want to use CW Maul's boost in power as a comparison to the rage boost Maul felt on Hypori, do you also agree that Maul can only see Sidious as a blur?
What does that matter when that Sidious was barely deflecting Maul's attacks himself at that point?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Which also suggests Sidious held back.
Theres nothing connecting the 2 incidents. The fight we saw was the higher form of canon. And the supervising directors words don't suggest at all that Sidious was holding back. Quite the opposite.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
After making him think he was better than he actually was.
Why because that's what he made out to Plageuis? Whom he was trying to convince Maul wasn't a Sith Apprentice..
That's not evidence.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh he moved like a blur? You mean like Kenobi and Qui-Gon did in the opening scene of TPM?
Don't even compare Qui-Gon Jinn to Plagueis in terms of speed. Plagueis would ultra-uber blitz him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and not properly perceiving with their eyes has never stopped them reacting.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You only have to go to Luke's training in the Original Star Wars to understand that. "Your eye can deceive you. Don't trust them."
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The fact that Yoda didn't blitzed Dooku and Sidious didin't blitzed Mace and Dooku didn't blitzed Kenobi, and Sidious didn't blitzed the Maul bros, just shows that the more powerful Jedi/Sith are not just going to be speed blitzed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well you've got that the wrong way around completely.It's not up to me to prove Sidious wasn't immensely holding back. It's up to you to prove it. Of course I can refer to TCW fight as my primary source. It was a fight that took place in a much higher form of canon, and showing the characters at a completely different point in time with different power sets.
Conclusion A) Sidious held back
Conclusion B) Maul grew in power immensly more than Sidious, and apparantly Opress is faster than TPM Maul.
The latter has zero proof, ergo the former is correct.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah so wheres your evidence Sidious became more combat effective since TPM like we know Maul did?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What does that matter when that Sidious was barely deflecting Maul's attacks himself at that point?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why because that's what he made out to Plageuis? Whom he was trying to convince Maul wasn't a Sith Apprentice..That's not evidence.
Despite his holding back, Sidious was still far too fast for Maul, this includes when Maul got his rage boost: he vanishes before Maul attacks and appears as a blur to Maul's eyes.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Theres nothing connecting the 2 incidents. The fight we saw was the higher form of canon. And the supervising directors words don't suggest at all that Sidious was holding back. Quite the opposite.
And really, Filoni suggests nothing.
Originally posted by Nephthys
To be fair, lightsabers appear as blurs in the movies as well, at regular person speeds. Glowing lightsticks blur by default when they move.
That Maul, even when boosted by rage, is only able to see Sidious' saber as a blur, shows the extreme difference in terms of speed.
Originally posted by Intrepid37There's no proof that Maul grew in speed.
There's clear proof Maul's combat abilities increased. Combat abilities include force enhanced strength and speed. In other words he got better. There's zero proof Sidious got better.
Originally posted by Intrepid37Canon class is irrelevant as the fights do not contradict each other in any way.
And really, Filoni suggests nothing.
Of course there's a contradiction. You have to make a reason for the 2 fights to fit - "Sidious holding back." Your making up this reason when we already have another reason given to us - Maul improved.
Not to mention the fact that like Arhael pointed out, Sidious never did speed blitzed Maul in the first place. Maul saw Sidious's Saber as a blur? So? Mace also saw Sidious as a blur!
Stick more to canon explanations, and use less speculation.
Filoni suggests the Brothers simply performed better than the Jedi who got blitzed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's clear proof Maul's combat abilities increased. Combat abilities include force enhanced strength and speed. In other words he got better. There's zero proof Sidious got better.
Since when is growing in power = growing in everything? Likewise, there's absolutely no reason to assume that his physical strength has increased.
There's a reason why The Phantom Menace refers to Maul as a ''warrior in his prime, never to be any better.''
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course there's a contradiction. You have to make a reason for the 2 fights to fit - "Sidious holding back." Your making up this reason when we already have another reason given to us - Maul improved.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
(Not to mention the fact that like Arhael pointed out, Sidious never did speed blitzed Maul in the first place. Maul so Sidious's Saber as a blur? So? Mace also saw Vastor moving as a blur, despite the fact that Mace can move faster than him.)
Even if it is, it doesn't matter. Vastor has the speed to which he can fight Mace equally: Maul, on the other hand, can only stand still and smell heat.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Stick more to canon explanations, and use less speculation.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni suggests the Brothers performed better than the Jedi who got blitzed.
Thus, AotC Kenobi>Ventress.
Sidious had his blades everywhere around Maul ( mechanical legs ) and even if he was stronger or faster or both, Sidious' blows were still faster than his eye could follow.
Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.
-Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
Originally posted by Intrepid37
There is not. In TCW, Maul shows improvement of his telekinetic abilities, but his showings of skill doesn't trumph TPM Maul.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thing is, you have no proof for your argument: I do for mine.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Since when is growing in power = growing in everything? Likewise, there's absolutely no reason to assume that his physical strength has increased.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I am speculating? No. You are speculating that Maul grew in speed when nothing suggests this. The fact that Sidious is too fast for Maul to even see isn't speculation, it's goddamn canon fact.
No you don't have proof. And it's certainly not fact. Just speculation about how Maul saw Sidious in another point in time when Maul was less powerful.
Anyway this is ridiculous. So we have to prove someone gets stronger/faster when they gain more power now?
So I would have to prove to you that ROTS Anakin is stronger/faster than AOTC Anakin? Or that ROTS Kenobi is stronger/faster than TPM Kenobi?
When does more power NOT lead a force user to be stronger and faster?
As for my proof:
Shadow conspiracy made it clear that when Maul is fighting Sidious, he's still in awe of how much Sidious is above him despite the fact that MAUL'S the one whose improved.
This makes it perfectly clear that his combat abilities have improved. I.e strength, speed.
/disussion.
Originally posted by Intrepid37There's a reason why The Phantom Menace refers to Maul as a ''warrior in his prime, never to be any better.''
It was talking about his combat skill. Of course his strength and speed can increase over time as he gains more power in the Force.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not comparable. Firstly, was Vastor's movements described as ''blindingly'' from Mace's point of view?Even if it is, it doesn't matter. Vastor has the speed to which he can fight Mace equally: Maul, on the other hand, can only stand still and smell heat.'
The whole passage was from Mace's perspective. As was Mace's fight with Sidious where he calls Sidious a Blur.
It's completely relevant. Because it shows just because he sees him as a blur, doesn't mean he can't fight him.
That's your own assumption/speculation.
Originally posted by Intrepid37He only mentioned this for Opress' part.
LOL If Opress performed better then do you not think it's a no brainer that Maul who performed much better than Opress, also performed better than those Jedi?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Either way, this means nothing. Opress performing better than someone else is irrelevant. On that basis, AotC Kenobi's performance against Dooku is better than Ventress' performance alone in Witches of the Mist.Thus, AotC Kenobi>Ventress.
Are you kidding me?
Dooku completely stomped AOTC Kenobi in Sabers. Whilst he had to put visible effort in his fight against Ventress. And in the end actually only defeated her with Force TK/Lightning.
A better argument would be that Opress and Ventress seemed to put up a better fight than a superior duo - ROTS Kenobi and Skywalker (up until Skywalker went Uber).
But does that mean Dooku was playing around with Ventress and Opress? Of course not!
He was putting in effort, but it was just a different environment and context. It was a surprise Double Team up that Dooku wasn't expecting and in a relatively enclosed space, when Opress and Ventress attacked him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku completely stomped AOTC Kenobi in Sabers. Whilst he had to put visible effort in his fight against Ventress.
That's Intrepid's point: Sidious put absolutely no visible effort in his fight against the brothers; he wasn't real aggressive, he was more calm and relaxed. Then we have Filoni outright confirm that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, which implies he wasn't taking Maul and Savage seriously, nor did he find them as any kind of threat. Furthermore, as been brought out numerous of times, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul, so blitzing him wouldn't even be an option. When Sidious slaughtered the 3 jedi masters in seconds, he was more blood lusted and was out to kill them as quick as possible so he could deal with Mace; he was far more aggressive during that fight.
This is why it's important to pay attention to the context of a fight, which is something you and Arhael have a habit of not doing. If we follow your guy's line of thinking, then AOTC Kenobi is better than Ventress, considering that Dooku was easily flooring her left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time.