Mace and Dooku vs. Yoda and Obi (Sabers only)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok. But Hypori was when he did take him on once in a fit of rage.

Whatever happened before that is ppointless to bring up because he had been starved for days/weeks. And was completely fatigued.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Quote was from when Kenobi is thinking just before he takes on btoh brothers.

But I concede this point as I just remembered Maul Force Choked Kenobi in Sith Hunters.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No your completely wrong on this point. Lucas's intention is above all these sources you've quoted.

" Again, he turned to Sidious. "Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the first one in Maul's Journal you've taken out of context. Maul saw himself as Sidious's tool but also his heir.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The second one is just what Dooku thinks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE

At least twice during the Lightsaber fight. 2:05 and 2:20. But I may have got confused between the end og the Lightsaber fight and the begninning of throwing the pods at 2:40. After which he's just laughing his ass off.

Point is even at the throwing pods scene, he was never holding back.

And the official site confirms Sidious's enjoyment at battling Yoda.

So no Sidious enjoying the fight and laughing is not proof at all of him holding back.

I've proven this many times but some people just don't want to accept this as they need to use it as their "obvious" context to the fight. Well that context clearly isn't a factor. At all.

This proves that, for example, Sidious knew that Opress was gonna kick him before it happened, thus why he was grinning as it happened.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is ridiculous. Of course it has to do with the context of the fight, otherwise it would be a pointless comparison.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, I don't think it was in their minds at all that Sidious has gone there to fight with "reduced speed" Lol.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where's that explained in the novel? Either way it's obvious the novel will always give us greater depth. That's the same for all films.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When Sidious demonstrated his superior speed, Maul was in perfect condition.

He was never in perfect condition on Hypori.

And I'm not denying Sidious is faster.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Except that Lucas has shown no intention of this.

Well Dave Filoni has made that clear the intention for what Maul was in TCW. So unless you think Filoni was doing that against Lucas's wishes?

It's Maul being nothing more than an instrument that Lucas, the Movies and TCW has never shown intention of.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
" Again, he turned to Sidious. "Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice."

Deceiving the guy he's planning to kill one day is hardly proof of anything.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not really out of context. Sidious tells Maul that ''he will do well'' and then tells him that he is his instrument. Maul acknowledges that in the quote I posted.

So what your claiming Maul knew he wasn't a true Sith Lord just someone Sidious was using?

Come one man. Think of the amount of time and effort Sidious put into Maul's training. Not just combat training, but skill to manipulate a Galaxy. It's silly to think that was all just to have an assassin.

Filoni's intention for TCW is clear. This is the Maul who was trained by Sidious to one day take over as Master.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's more than what you've brought to the table. 😬

Filoni's intention is >>> Dooku's opinion on Maul just being a tool. Especially considering we know it was Dooku who was being used by Sidious the whole time. Which just shows Dooku had no clue to Sidious's real intentions.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thing is, according to Shadow Conspiracy, Sidious knew all of Maul and Opress' moves before they had even developed:

This proves that, for example, Sidious knew that Opress was gonna kick him before it happened, thus why he was grinning as it happened.

Yeah that's Force Pre-Cog. Sidious's Pre-Cog was better than Maul's and Opress which is the reason he was in control of the fight.

But that doesn't mean he could have Blitzed them any time. After all the novel says that The Instant Maul was just slightly off balance Sidious used it to his advantage to Force TK Maul.

That doesn't hint at an opponent holding back at all.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Your interpretation is no more valid than mine, bud.

Yeah except there's nothing to interpret. His statement is pretty clear cut. With a direct comparison made to a situation we damn well know Sidious wasn't holding back.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Exactly, and this is why you simply cannot use Filoni's statement as evidence.

Of course we can. He was the Supervising Director of a T-Canon source.

If he had no intention of having Sidious fighting at reduced speed, then Sidious simply wasn't holding back in the Saber combat. End of.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was never in perfect condition on Hypori.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Dave Filoni has made that clear the intention for what Maul was in TCW. So unless you think Filoni was doing that against Lucas's wishes?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Deceiving the guy he's planning to kill one day is hardly proof of anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what your claiming Maul knew he wasn't a true Sith Lord just someone Sidious was using?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Come one man. Think of the amount of time and effort Sidious put into Maul's training. Not just combat training, but skill to manipulate a Galaxy. It's silly to think that was all just to have an assassin.

Filoni's intention for TCW is clear. This is the Maul who was trained by Sidious to one day take over as Master.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

I, too, made a mistake. Perhaps Maul was not the best choice. For my next apprentice, I will choose more carefully. There must be hate and fear in him. There must be something in his heart that has gone cold, something that I can work on to expand into ruthlessness. But there must be great cunning and intelligence as well.

The next apprentice will make no mistakes.

-[i]Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

His eyes glittered. Still, he had gotten what he wanted most from this business. Even the loss of Darth Maul was worth that. He would bide his time. He would wait for his chance. He would lay the groundwork for what was needed.

A smile played across his thin lips. A day of reckoning would come about soon enough.

-The Phantom Menace

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni's intention is >>> Dooku's opinion on Maul just being a tool.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Especially considering we know it was Dooku who was being used by Sidious the whole time. Which just shows Dooku had no clue to Sidious's real intentions.

Dooku has no reason for him to think of Maul as a minion unless Sidious had told him he was, considering Dooku acknowledges Maul's skill.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah that's Force Pre-Cog. Sidious's Pre-Cog was better than Maul's and Opress which is the reason he was in control of the fight

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But that doesn't mean he could have Blitzed them any time. After all the novel says that The Instant Maul was just slightly off balance Sidious used it to his advantage to Force TK Maul.

That doesn't hint at an opponent holding back at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except there's nothing to interpret. His statement is pretty clear cut. With a direct comparison made to a situation we damn well know Sidious wasn't holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course we can. He was the Supervising Director of a T-Canon source.

If he had no intention of having Sidious fighting at reduced speed, then Sidious simply wasn't holding back in the Saber combat. End of.

Intrepid37
Not really ''the'' reason. Sidious is faster, stronger, more skilled, more powerful, more anything than the brothers.

Didn't someone post a quote saying that Sidious had never been trying to kill Maul? Why is the discussion carrying on past that point?

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Intrepid37
Maul is still a good warrior, though.

Yup.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Filoni hasn't made a clear intention.

Yes he has. Watch all his and Sam Witwer's interviews on the subject. It couldn't be more clear.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was, but not one that was meant to ever exceed Sidious and carry on the Rule of Two. But such does not take away from hos (obvious) high level of skill and mastery as a combatant.

It seems he was initially. But since you agree it has no bearing on his combat potential, there's no point in arguing the matter.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Oh come on. You expect a Sith Master to tell his apprentice: "I need you so bad.."

And this is what he's telling Maul. So are you really going to tell me Maul himself knew he wasn't a true Sith heir?

You should stop arguing this point which has been confirmed to be false by the creators of TCW.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I, too, made a mistake. Perhaps Maul was not the best choice. For my next apprentice, I will choose more carefully. There must be hate and fear in him. There must be something in his heart that has gone cold, something that I can work on to expand into ruthlessness. But there must be great cunning and intelligence as well.

The next apprentice will make no mistakes.

[i]His eyes glittered. Still, he had gotten what he wanted most from this business. Even the loss of Darth Maul was worth that. He would bide his time. He would wait for his chance. He would lay the groundwork for what was needed.

A smile played across his thin lips. A day of reckoning would come about soon enough.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Sidious's thoughts after Maul got killed in a very clumsy fashion by a Padawan. Has no bearing at all on Maul's potential and Sidious's initial intentions for him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku notes in Revenge of the Sith how Maul had been ''an animal, a skilled animal, but a beast nontheless''.

Dooku has no reason for him to think of Maul as a minion unless Sidious had told him he was, considering Dooku acknowledges Maul's skill.

Stop using what Dooku thought as some kind of proof of Sidious's inital intentions.

Dooku also tells Opress in higher canon that Maul was a "Great Sith Lord." Not that he was "a Great Sith Tool." Lol

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really ''the'' reason. Sidious is faster, stronger, more skilled, more powerful, more anything than the brothers.

And he has better pre-cog.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The only thing that statement confirms is that Opress performed better than the Jedi. That's it. It has zero to do with Sidious holding back.

Of course it does. He made a direct comparison to the Jedi's situation where Sidious obviously wasn't holding back.

Stop twisting Filoni's words to mean something else. He never once mentioned or even hinted at Sidious purposefully reducing his speed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's no proof that he didn't have the intention. After all, the official novelization for the episodes has Sidious becoming faster and faster.

In a scene that's been overwritten by the actual episode. In the actual scene your referring to, there was very little difference in speed between Maul and Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't someone post a quote saying that Sidious had never been trying to kill Maul? Why is the discussion carrying on past that point?

Actually the quote from the novel was that Sidious wasn't holding back.

And I'm the one wondering how this can carry on after Filoni flat out confirmed in the episode review that Opress and Maul simply performed better than the Jedi who got blitzed 😕

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes he has. Watch all his and Sam Witwer's interviews on the subject. It couldn't be more clear.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh come on. You expect a Sith Master to tell his apprentice: "I need you so bad.."

He said it, deal with it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And this is what he's telling Maul. So are you really going to tell me Maul himself knew he wasn't a true Sith heir?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You should stop arguing this point which has been confirmed to be false by the creators of TCW.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious's thoughts after Maul got killed in a very clumsy fashion by a Padawan. Has no bearing at all on Maul's potential and Sidious's initial intentions for him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Stop using what Dooku thought as some kind of proof of Sidious's inital intentions.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And he has better pre-cog.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course it does. He made a direct comparison to the Jedi's situation where Sidious obviously wasn't holding back.

Stop twisting Filoni's words to mean something else.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He never once mentioned or even hinted at Sidious purposefully reducing his speed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Link me?

And I am twisting words?

He said it, deal with it.

Maul obviously thought otherwise.

If so, prove it.

I'll have to go back through their interviews now to find them.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul obviously thought otherwise.

This is getting silly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious himself confirmes that for his plans to succeed were more important than for Maul to survive, and that he could do without him, in contrary to Sidious' worries should Anakin die.

That's because Anakin was an exceptional case that would grow the Sith a tremendous amount.

When Luke came along he was willing to replace Vader. Does that mean Vader was a tool the whole time, and not a true Sith Heir?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Much better. To the degree where he basically knew what Maul and Opress were gonna do.

That's how Pre-Cog works.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I am twisting nothing: Filoni made it clear that Opress performed better against Sidious than Fisto, Tiin and Kolar did. You are the one twisting it so that it sounds like Sidious was not holding back.

Filoni's words were clear. He compared the 2 situations and said Opress simply did better.

Your the one adding the twist that Sidious was holding back in one of the situations. A twist without adequate proof to back it up. And a twist Filoni hasn't even hinted at in all his extensive interviews concerning that fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'll have to go back through their interviews now to find them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is getting silly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When Luke came along he was willing to replace Vader. Does that mean Vader was a tool the whole time, and not a true Sith Heir?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's how Pre-Cog works.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni's words were clear. He compared the 2 situations and said Opress simply did better.

Your the one adding the twist that Sidious was holding back in one of the situations. A twist without adequate proof to back it up. And a twist Filoni hasn't even hinted at in all his extensive interviews concerning that fight.

I did not bring up Filoni's statements and do not use it as proof for my argument.

Again, Sidious can move so fast that TPM Maul couldn't see him. The same TPM Maul that, according to a novelization, were on the top of his game in the aspects of lightsaber skill and physical prowess.

It is up for you to prove that TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul. Your interpretation of Shadow Conspiracy is nil when compared to an actual canon source.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually the quote from the novel was that Sidious wasn't holding back.

And I'm the one wondering how this can carry on after Filoni flat out confirmed in the episode review that Opress and Maul simply performed better than the Jedi who got blitzed 😕

God, are you still ****ing sore about that? He says they put up more of a fight, which no shit they did. That means nothing about whether Sidious allowed them to.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'll wait.

Haven't had a chance to go through all of them yet, but already have this from Sam Witwer:

http://www.hollywood.com/news/tv/49295866/sam-witwer-on-darth-maul-s-clone-wars-fate-he-s-playing-a-long-game-q-a?page=all

HW: In "Eminence" and "Shades of Reason" we saw a degree of leadership in Maul that we never got to glimpse in Phantom Menace.

SW: On The Clone Wars, we had to show that Maul was capable of being a general. Darth Sidious chose him to be his apprentice and trained him well. Maul wasn’t just a mindless hitman. And this was the version of the character that I’d been waiting to do for a long time.

NEXT: How Darth Maul has become an intellectual character. And also, how he may have inspired Darth Sidious to keep in faith in Vader even after that little swan-dive into a volcano.HW: Now we get to see that Maul's actually an intellectual character. He's not just a blunt instrument, an assassin, like it seemed in the movie.

SW: He had to be. The Sith as a culture realized, "Hey, we’re all bad guys, we don’t work well together, so let’s keep it to two. Otherwise we’ll be killing each other left and right." So if you follow the Rule of Two, you have to pick your apprentice very carefully.

You don’t just pick a guy because he can do cool flips and swing a sword good. You choose a guy who is brilliant and gifted in so many ways, physically and mentally, and can carry on the Sith tradition proudly. A thuggish hitman would be a hindrance when trying to take over the galaxy. You need someone who can work with you and to whom you can pass the baton when the time comes.

And that’s a theme in the Star Wars saga as a whole. It’s so very much about Sidious trying to find that successor. He thinks he’s found that person in Darth Maul, but then Maul is cut down. And then he thinks, “Well, I’ll pick a guy who’s already trained really well,” but it doesn’t work out with Count Dooku because he quickly has his eye on this Anakin Skywalker guy.

But sadly Darth Vader never becomes as good as he could have been because he’s disabled. And finally he sets his sights on Luke Skywalker, and that’s the guy who does him in.

And before you claim it's only Sam Witwer's opinion, it's clear he has discussed it all in length with Dave Filoni, and not just something he's making up himself:

HW: It's hard to believe that when "The Lawless" airs, wrapping up this arc, it'll only be the fifth episode in which we've seen Maul. What do you make of his transformation so far?

SW: Dave and I from the very beginning talked about this storyline way back when we were doing the "Maul in a cave" episodes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
After Sidious heard of Luke, yes.

Proves they are all expendable if someone better comes along.

But fact is he put the most time and effort into training Maul.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And thus makes it perfectly clear that Sidious was holding back.

Yeah in your head. His large superiority was clearly shown in the fight, so it's not clear at all in any way that he was holding back.

But keep pretending he was.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
facepalm

I did [b]not bring up Filoni's statements and do not use it as proof for my argument.[/B]

I know you didn't. You can't because he doesn't support your stance. His statement clearly supports mine.

And please save your face palms for yourself, while your trying to pretend Maul wasn't a true Sith Apprentice.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Again, Sidious can move so fast that TPM Maul couldn't see him. The same TPM Maul that, according to a novelization, were on the top of his game in the aspects of lightsaber skill and physical prowess.

It is up for you to prove that TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul. Your interpretation of Shadow Conspiracy is nil when compared to an actual canon source.

He's more powerful. That's all the proof I need that this is a compeltely different fight, even if you can prove that Sidious is also more powerful.

So it's up to you to prove that Sidious can Blitaz TCW Maul, which so far you've completely failed to do.

Not to mention Sidious never actually did Blitz TPM Maul in combat. But that's another argument that doesn't even matter as TCW Maul is more powerful. And he's more powerful in every way, unless you can prove otherwise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Haven't had a chance to go through all of them yet, but already have this from Sam Witwer:

[QUOTE=14333465]Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]And that’s a theme in the Star Wars saga as a whole. It’s so very much about Sidious trying to find that successor. He thinks he’s found that person in Darth Maul, but then Maul is cut down.[/u] And then he thinks, “Well, I’ll pick a guy who’s already trained really well,” but it doesn’t work out with Count Dooku because he quickly has his eye on this Anakin Skywalker guy.

You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Proves they are all expendable if someone better comes along.

But fact is he put the most time and effort into training Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah in your head. His large superiority was clearly shown in the fight, so it's not clear at all in any way that he was holding back.

But keep pretending he was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know you didn't. You can't because he doesn't support your stance. His statement clearly supports mine.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And please save your face palms for yourself, while your trying to pretend Maul wasn't a true Sith Apprentice.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's more powerful. That's all the proof I need that this is a compeltely different fight,

The statement in TPM novelization stands.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
even if you can prove that Sidious is also more powerful.

In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.

The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.

Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.

Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?

Sidious had never learned how Plagueis's own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis's hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is the only thing that backs up your point,

This is one of many interviews with Dave Filoni and Sam Witwer which confirms the same thing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
but unfortunately, it is his opinion

No it's not his opinion:

None of this is taken lightly at Lucasfilm. This is George Lucas’ doing, all of this stuff. He’s the one engineering these stories that me, Dave, the other voice actors, and the animators are implementing.

Dave and I from the very beginning talked about this storyline way back

On The Clone Wars, we had to show that Maul was capable of being a general. Darth Sidious chose him to be his apprentice and trained him well. Maul wasn’t just a mindless hitman. And this was the version of the character that I’d been waiting to do for a long time.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
and is contradicted by Lucas:

You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! [b]He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.[/B]

Lucas hasn't contradicted the idea that Maul was iniitally trained as Sidious's successor anywhere there.

On the other hand his intention with what Maul was and how he was trained by Sidious and for what purpose has been made clear by everyone working on TCW. They're the ones following exactly what Lucas wanted on TCW as I've posted above.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If Sidious knows every move that the brothers are gonna make, how is it possible that Opress held out for a minute and Maul even longer? Especially since Sidious os far more skilled?

Maul was super enraged when fighting on his own. Opress was clearly outclassed when fighting on his own. I don't see your point.

Just because Sidious >>> Maul/Opress doesn't equal automatic blitz.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Keep pretending that Filoni's statement has anything to do with anything.

LOL Yes the Supervising Director of the show talking about how well Opress did against Sidious has nothing to do with anything.

Instead we should just stick yo your vague quotes relating to a less powerful Maul.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I acknowledge Maul's power and he is one of my favorites, but there's no point making him look stronger than he is.

LOL I'm only making him as powerful as he was shown in his fight against Sidious.

Your the one making him less powerful by randomly making your own context to the fight: "Sidious slowed down his speed" not confirmed or even hinted at by any official source.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nope. Again, Shadow Conspiracy confirms Maul grew more powerful, but it confirms that he had grown through his hatred and through the force, not through physical aspects.

It's the Force that enhances all abilities. Including strength and speed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The statement in TPM novelization stands.

The way your interpreting it? No it doesn't.

He would never have been considered as apprentice if that was his full combat potential.

So either it was referring to combat skill, or it's just outdated material.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's the Force that enhances all abilities. Including strength and speed.

My personal little theory here with the M.Brother vs Sidious fight wasn't exactly Sidious "holding back" as it was him kinda "messing around".

He wasn't purposely holding back his power to make the battle more even or whatever, but he wasn't exactly pushed to the limits either. He was enjoying himself, and cutting loose for the first time in years. >w>

But it's simply silly to say that had Sidious wanted, he could have killed them in an instant with lightning-fast ninja moves here. Seriously.

Victory is mine:

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I have brought this up, but apparantly it's all in the ''TPM period'' so it's not enough.

Yeah, well you're arguing with DARTH POWER lol.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because Maul clearly didn't hold a candle to Sidious in terms of power in the force?

Despiste his increase in power, Maul acknowledges Sidious superiority through the force:

[i]The commandos guarding the royal chamber reached for their throats. As Maul watched, an unseen forced lifted them high in the air, then slammed them to the floor, where they lay motionless in their red-and-black armor. The doors opened, then closed behind a figure in dark robes. A deep cowl hid most of the face, leaving only a pale chin and a downturned mouth visible. To most eyes the man in those simple robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. [b]To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.

This was before they even engaged in combat. I'm referring to Maul's musing during mid-combat. Maul muses that as strong as he had become, he still found himself in awe of Sidious, and then goes on to elaborate on Sidious' blade-work, which seems to imply that Maul's new found powers did increase his combat prowess, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for him to make a contrast in his increase of power to Sidious' bladework, unless his powers did increase his combat performance to some level.

But other than that, I agree with you. And arguing with DP is a waste of time. He will argue and argue and argue and argue no matter how wrong he is. He will even go to desperate lengths to win a debate. For example, he keeps comparing Sidious laughter at certain moments during his fight with Yoda to his entire demeanor during his fight with the brothers, despite the fact that Sidious clearly showed more signs of struggle, strain and desperation during his fight with Yoda more than any other fight he has been in during their saber duel (Sidious even shouts in complete frustration). So comparing Sidious fight with Yoda to his fight with the brothers is stupid. Sidious was constantly very relaxed, calm, and far less aggressive during his duel with the brothers. Throughout the entire duel, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul, and was clearly toying with Savage. Obviously, he wasn't fighting them his hardest.

As for Savage putting up a better fight against Sidious than the council members, well one could just as easily say Barris put up a better fight against Anakin than Dooku did (or just as good of a fight), if they ignore the circumstance and context of the fight. But to suggest that Barris is anywhere near Dooku in terms of speed and skill, would be outright retarded. So like I said, unless Lucas depicted Sidious with the same demeanor during his fight against the council member as Filoni depicted him during his fight against the brothers, then Filoni's comment is irrelevant in a vs. forum.