Mace and Dooku vs. Yoda and Obi (Sabers only)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No you don't have proof. And it's certainly not fact. Just speculation about how Maul saw Sidious in another point in time when Maul was less powerfu

Further more, twice or so in Mauk's journal, he basically picks up Maul and slowly chokes him until he's at the brink of death. Considering he was handling a more powerful Maul + Opress at the same time through the force as casual as he did TPM Maul, is it not proof he improved?

It's ludicrous to assume that Maul grew when he's half spider but Sidious did not while having time to study the dark side.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway this is ridiculous. So we have to prove someone gets stronger/faster when they gain more power now?

[QUOTE=14325619]Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]So I would have to prove to you that ROTS Anakin is stronger/faster than AOTC Anakin? Or that ROTS Kenobi is stronger/faster than TPM Kenobi?

AotC Anakin has practically covered himself in light. Has RotS Anakin ever replicated this feat?

TPM Kenobi moved his blade so fast it expanded into a shield. Has RotS Kenobi ever replicated this feat?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When does more power NOT lead a force user to be stronger and faster?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for my proof:

Shadow conspiracy made it clear that when Maul is fighting Sidious, he's still in awe of how much Sidious is above him despite the fact that MAUL'S the one whose improved.

This makes it perfectly clear that his combat abilities have improved. I.e strength, speed.

/disussion.

If you want to refer to Shadow Conspiracy, Maul, in the end, can only pick up afterimages of Sidious. :up]

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was talking about his [b]combat skill. [/B]

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This makes it perfectly clear that his [b]combat abilities have improved. I.e strength, speed. [/B]

This is a nice double standard. 👆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The whole passage was from Mace's perspective.

It's not:

Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

[i]Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's completely relevant. Because it shows just because he sees him as a blur, doesn't mean he can't fight him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's your own assumption/speculation.

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL If Opress performed better then do you not think it's a no brainer that Maul who performed much better than Opress, also performed better than those Jedi?

Really, performing better than someone else means nothing, especially if one's opponent is holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Are you kidding me?

Dooku completely stomped AOTC Kenobi in Sabers. Whilst he had to put visible effort in his fight against Ventress. And in the end actually only defeated her with Force TK/Lightning.

A better argument would be that Opress and Ventress seemed to put up a better fight than a superior duo - ROTS Kenobi and Skywalker (up until Skywalker went Uber).

But does that mean Dooku was playing around with Ventress and Opress? Of course not!

He was putting in effort, but it was just a different environment and context. It was a surprise Double Team up that Dooku wasn't expecting and in a relatively enclosed space, when Opress and Ventress attacked him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's Intrepid's point: Sidious put absolutely no visible effort in his fight against the brothers; he wasn't real aggressive, he was more calm and relaxed. Then we have Filoni outright confirm that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, which implies he wasn't taking Maul and Savage seriously, nor did he find them as any kind of threat. Furthermore, as been brought out numerous of times, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul, so blitzing him wouldn't even be an option. When Sidious slaughtered the 3 jedi masters in seconds, he was more blood lusted and was out to kill them as quick as possible so he could deal with Mace; he was far more aggressive during that fight.

This is why it's important to pay attention to the context of a fight, which is something you and Arhael have a habit of not doing. If we follow your guy's line of thinking, then AOTC Kenobi is better than Ventress, considering that Dooku was easily flooring her left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time.

Not sure why this kid doesn't see it.

Whether holding back or not, I still hold that had Sidious truly been fast enough to blitz the two he should not have been hit once in the duel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Oh please. This was before becoming powerful enough to kill Plagueis.

It was all around TPM time period.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Further more, twice or so in Mauk's journal, he basically picks up Maul and slowly chokes him until he's at the brink of death. Considering he was handling a more powerful Maul + Opress at the same time through the force as casual as he did TPM Maul, is it not proof he improved?

No not at all. Opress wasn't there the first time. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's ludicrous to assume that Maul grew when he's half spider but Sidious did not while having time to study the dark side.

We damn well know Maul became more powerful. There's no proof anywhere Sidious did.

And how did he have more time after becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy, while secretly setting up a Galactic civil war?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
AotC Anakin has practically covered himself in light. Has RotS Anakin ever replicated this feat?

TPM Kenobi moved his blade so fast it expanded into a shield. Has RotS Kenobi ever replicated this feat?

So you don't think Anakin and Obi-Wan became more powerful throughout the movies because they don't have as many "visual feats" later on?

But I'm supposed to for absolutely no reason believe Sidious became more powerful in that time?

Wow.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you want to refer to Shadow Conspiracy, Maul, in the end, can only pick up afterimages of Sidious. :up]

The canon policy here is that we take books and comics(lower canon) as canon apart from when they contradict the same event in higher canon(movies and animation).

Clearly in the final battle between Maul and Sidious, Sidious wasn't moving too fast for him. He overpowered him in a Saber lock. Not through a Speed Blitz.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is a nice double standard. 👆

You have to point out the double standard for me to address it. Because I honestly don't see one.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When Maul wasn't given a boost and when Sidious did not hold back, Maul couldn't even see him.

Yes but it was a less powerful Maul.

Not to mention Sidious was a blur to Mace, but that didn't stop him fighting him. Not to mention these "invisible" Jedi/Sith showings have not been displayed anywhere in higher canon.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Really, performing better than someone else means nothing, especially if one's opponent is holding back..

Yeah except there's nothing to say he was holding back.

And your just completely ignoring Dave Filoni's comment on the matter. Fact is he wouldn't have said that if his intention was for Sidious to be holding back. His comments go against yours and Sidious66's speculation. Because his comment about Opress performing better would be pointless and quite frankly retarded if we take yours and S66's views.

Am I saying that Sidious was pushed to his speed and strength limit like he was against Mace or Yoda? No. But that's not the same as purposefully holding back and slowing down his movements. Your making the claim. Prove it. And bringing up training sessions from Maul's perspective 10 years eariler, when Maul pretty much worshipped the ground Sidious walked on, is not proof that Sidious could speed blitz Maul 10+ years later when Maul is known to be more powerful.

You know what would have been proof? If Sidious actually did speed blitz Maul. But he didn't.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
SIDIOUS66 have covered this nice and smoothly:

Sidious66 and me have been over this countless times. All his arguments are speculative. As are yours on this topic.

You both need to accept that Sidious never speed blitz the brothers. On the contrary, he actually got hit a couple of times (a bit strange for a guy who is too fast to be seen) like Ares has correctly pointed out.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not sure why this kid doesn't see it.

I ain't no kid pal.

Edit.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's Intrepid's point: Sidious put absolutely no visible effort in his fight against the brothers; he wasn't real aggressive, he was more calm and relaxed. Then we have Filoni outright confirm that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, which implies he wasn't taking Maul and Savage seriously, nor did he find them as any kind of threat. Furthermore, as been brought out numerous of times, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul, so blitzing him wouldn't even be an option. When Sidious slaughtered the 3 jedi masters in seconds, he was more blood lusted and was out to kill them as quick as possible so he could deal with Mace; he was far more aggressive during that fight.

This is why it's important to pay attention to the context of a fight, which is something you and Arhael have a habit of not doing. If we follow your guy's line of thinking, then AOTC Kenobi is better than Ventress, considering that Dooku was easily flooring her left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time.

Firstly none of this is Intrepid's point at all.

Intrepid is claiming that Sidious can Blitzed CW Maul because he could blitzed TPM Maul, completely ignoring Maul growing more powerful. That's all the proof he's been using really.

Second you bring up Filoni's comments, but make your own interpretation of it. Enjoying the fight is not at all implying he was holding back, as the Official Site itself confirms Sidious was enjoying his fight with Yoda.

What Filoni does outright confirm (which you will never accept), that Opress simply did better against Sidious than those Jedi who got blitzed. That's it. That's the reason him and Maul were not blitzed because he did better than them.

Let's not pretend Sidious desperately needed Maul alive, and wouldn't be willing to chop him up if he was required to.

As for Dooku vs Kenobi in AOTC, you only have to read the novel for confirmation on just how one sided that whole fight was.

Ventress performed much better in her one on one. And Dooku actually resorted to using Force TK to take her down.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was all around TPM time period.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No not at all. Opress wasn't there the first time. Simple as that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And how did he have more time after becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy, while secretly setting up a Galactic civil war?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So you don't think Anakin and Obi-Wan became more powerful throughout the movies because they don't have as many "visual feats" later on?

But I'm supposed to for absolutely no reason believe Sidious became more powerful in that time?

Wow.

But really, I'm not suggesting that neither Anakin nor Kenobi didn't grow throughout the movies in either speed or strength, but you must realise that Maul did not grow in strength by sparring and fighting.

Maul had grown more powerful [...] his hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara,

His ''hermitage on Lotho Minor and lessons on Unbara'' clearly refer to increased power in the force, unless you're gonna argue that Maul grew in physical aspects when half spider.

his restoration by Mother Talzin,

This clearly refers to increased power through the force as well.

and his training of Savage had all strengthened him,

This is the only part for where you could argue that he grew in aspect to physical attributes, but it can as well be interpretated as though his connection to the force had grown, especially given the last part:

made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The canon policy here is that we take books and comics(lower canon) as canon apart from when they contradict the same event in higher canon(movies and animation).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You have to point out the double standard for me to address it. Because I honestly don't see one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but it was a less powerful Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not to mention Sidious was a blur to Mace, but that didn't stop him fighting him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not to mention these "invisible" Jedi/Sith showings have not been displayed anywhere in higher canon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Am I saying Sidious pushed to his limit like he was against Mace or Yoda? No. But that's not the same as purposefully holding back and slowing down his movements. Your making the claim. Prove it. And bringing up training sessions from Maul's perspective 10 years eariler, when Maul pretty much worshipped the ground Sidious walked on, is not proof that Sidious could speed blitz Maul 10+ years later when Maul is known to be more powerful.

In his fight with the Council, his expressions remain extremely serious: only when Mace loses a hand he smiles and screams ''unlimited power!''.

In his fight with the brothers, however, Sidious chucks them against the glass wall without any effort while laughing. He laughs throughout the duel as well: just before he is kicked by Opress, he smiles, and he does not show any sign of frustration by the kick: he laughs as he takes them with him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious improves twice in one book alone. Is it so hard to believe he improved in a span of what, twelve years?

He apparantly has time to teach Dooku lightning, to teach him Dun Möch and to stomp on the brothers, but not time to become more powerful?

Yes, becausde that was through his training. And before he became Supreme Chancellor. I'm not completely ruling out that he might have improved, but you'll definitely need to prove that.

He specifically chose Dooku because he didn't have the time to teach someone from scratch again. Being Supreme Chancellor whilst sub-plotting a civil war kept Sidious plenty busy.

Fighting the Maul brothers seems to have been the first time he came back out into action in a long long time.

On the other hand we know as a fact that Maul grew more powerful.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Someone needs to teach me how to make a facepalm-smiley because I need it here.

This is facepalm: facepalm. Not sure what a facepalmismiley is. Either way I'm pretty sure I don't deserve one! Lol

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But really, I'm not suggesting that neither Anakin nor Kenobi didn't grow throughout the movies in either speed or strength, but you must realise that Maul did not grow in strength by sparring and fighting.

Maul had grown more powerful [...] his hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara,

His ''hermitage on Lotho Minor and lessons on Unbara'' clearly refer to increased power in the force, unless you're gonna argue that Maul grew in physical aspects when half spider.

his restoration by Mother Talzin,

This clearly refers to increased power through the force as well.

and his training of Savage had all strengthened him,

This is the only part for where you could argue that he grew in aspect to physical attributes, but it can as well be interpretated as though his connection to the force had grown, especially given the last part:

made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

I agree to an extent. Maul didn't get more powerful through combat. In fact according to Sith Hunters even Mother Talzins power only "restored him to his former power."

It was the rage and hatred that built up in him through the years that made him more powerful.

But fact is he was more powerful.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You say that Shadow Conspiracy refers to Maul growing in combat abilities, to which you refer speed and strength. When covering the quote in The Phantom Menace, you say it refers to Maul's combat abilities, but in this case combat abilities does not refer to speed and strength?

Shadow conspiracy doesn't say "He was a warrior in his prime." That was only said in TPM novel. Which HAS TO be referring to his combat skills. There's no way that was the maximum speed and strength he could ever achieve. If it was he wouldn't be a worthy apprentice for Sidious.

Remember according to TCW he was trained to take over as Master one day. Not just as a mere tool for Sidious.

Shadow Conspiracy on the other hand describes the fight from Maul's POV where he's comparing this fight to facing Sidious in years past. And that's where he notes that despite his added power, he's still no match for Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In Sidious' fight with Yoda, he was only laughing when he had the joy of throwing several pods; without any advantage, Sidious was doing his best, growling/roaring and struggling in each saberlock. Further, in Rise of Darth Vader, Sidious tells Vader to think that ''what Yoda might have done to you!'' and he ''flung his words with brutal honesty'': this clearly indicates that, whenever Sidious did not possess any circumstancial advantage, he was struggling.

In his fight with the Council, his expressions remain extremely serious: only when Mace loses a hand he smiles and screams ''unlimited power!''.

In his fight with the brothers, however, Sidious chucks them against the glass wall without any effort while laughing. He laughs throughout the duel as well: just before he is kicked by Opress, he smiles, and he does not show any sign of frustration by the kick: he laughs as he takes them with him.

Of course his fight with Yoda was harder than his fight with the Brothers. So of course we would see him struggle more. But the fact is he was laughing while fighting Yoda too.

Not only when he threw the pods. But also in the Lightsaber fight.

He wasn't laughing when fighting the Council, but was when he fought Yoda, so does that mean he was holding back against Yoda? And that fighting the Council was a lot more difficult for him than tackling Yoda?

No of course not.

And what's further damning evidence is that the Official Site outright confirms that Sidious ENJOYED HIS FIGHT WITH YODA. So CLEARLY enjoying the fight does not mean holding back!

Intrepid Fact is Dave Filoni flat out confimred that even Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than those 3 Coucil members.

Don't just ignore what he's saying. It would be a pointless and retarded thing for him to bring up if his intention was for Sidious to be holding back.

And the Fact is in all the numerous interviews with Dave Filoni he's never once mentioned or even hinted at Sidious holding back. He wouldn't leave out such an important part of the fight.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

What?

Oh yeah this. Jedi/Sith are not invisible to the eye in higher canon. Arhael's pointed this out and I somewhat agree that it just seems to be hyperbolic descriptions used in novels.

They're fast. Sure. But not too fast to even see, and certianly never too fast for someone like Maul to even see.

And certianly not as fast as the kind of things Jedi/Sith are always reacting to like Blaster bolts.

In fact the fastest on screen depiction of Lightsaber movements have been from Grievous, whom the best Jedi/Sith can definitely react to.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes, becausde that was through his training. And before he became Supreme Chancellor. I'm not completely ruling out that he might have improved, but you'll definitely need to prove that.
He specifically chose Dooku because he didn't have the time to teach someone from scratch again. Being Supreme Chancellor whilst sub-plotting a civil war kept Sidious plenty busy.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fighting the Maul brothers seems to have been the first time he came back out into action in a long long time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
On the other hand we know as a fact that Maul grew more powerful.

Sidious is stated to be the most powerful Sith ever, but it does not stop Vitiate from rivaling him in the aspect of lightning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is facepalm: facepalm. Not sure what a facepalmismiley is. Either way I'm pretty sure I don't deserve one! Lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I agree to an extent. Maul didn't get more powerful through combat. In fact according to Sith Hunters even Mother Talzins power only "restored him to his former power."

It was the rage and hatred that built up in him through the years that made him more powerful.

But fact is he was more powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Shadow conspiracy doesn't say "He was a warrior in his prime." That was only said in TPM novel. Which HAS TO be referring to his combat skills. There's no way that was the maximum speed and strength he could ever achieve. If it was he wouldn't be a worthy apprentice for Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Remember according to TCW he was trained to take over as Master one day. Not just as a mere tool for Sidious.

When did he say that? Sidious makes it clear that Maul was his ''instrument'' and that, even before Maul's apparant death, Anakin was always in his plans.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Shadow Conspiracy on the other hand describes the fight from Maul's POV where he's comparing this fight to facing Sidious in years past. And that's where he notes that despite his added power, he's still no match for Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course his fight with Yoda was harder than his fight with the Brothers. So of course we would see him struggle more. But the fact is he was laughing while fighting Yoda too.

Not only when he threw the pods. But also in the Lightsaber fight.

He wasn't laughing when fighting the Council, but was when he fought Yoda, so does that mean he was holding back against Yoda?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And that fighting the Council was a lot more difficult for him than tackling Yoda?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what's further damning evidence is that the Official Site outright confirms that Sidious ENJOYED HIS FIGHT WITH YODA. So CLEARLY enjoying the fight does not mean holding back!

As for Sidious enjoying his fight against Yoda, the official site makes it clear that Sidious ''knew he one day would have to eliminate Yoda'' and the novelization has it that Sidious is delighted to see Yoda.

It's more because Yoda was the most powerful Jedi, and for him to be destroyed would be the ultimate fall of the Jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Intrepid Fact is Dave Filoni flat out confimred that even Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than those 3 Coucil members.

Don't just ignore what he's saying. It would be a pointless and retarded thing for him to bring up if his intention was for Sidious to be holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the Fact is in all the numerous interviews with Dave Filoni he's never once mentioned or even hinted at Sidious holding back. He wouldn't leave out such an important part of the fight.

Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

---------

Does that actually mean that Sidious tried to kill Maul?

Edit: Even if it does, it is a complete contradiction as later on in the same book, Sidious gets faster and faster, indicating he had been holding back the entire time.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

I know, but really, growing in power doesn't allude to every aspect.

Sidious is stated to be the most powerful Sith ever, but it does not stop Vitiate from rivaling him in the aspect of lightning.

That all depends on each combatant's level of Mastery in different departments- Force TK, Force Lightning, Force enhanced abilities e.t.c.

But when the same individual has grown more powerful in the force, then you can bet that will effect all his abilities. Mual's TK was better because he grew more powerful in the Force. Not because his Force Mastery increased while he was mentally unstable on Lotho Minor all those years.

Kenobi also notes Maul is more powerful in Shadow Conspiracy. Since Kenobi hasn't even witnessed Maul's TK, the only possible explanation for that is he's witnessed the extra power in his combat performance.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

When did he say that? Sidious makes it clear that Maul was his ''instrument'' and that, even before Maul's apparant death, Anakin was always in his plans.

He only made that "clear" to Plaguies. Lucas's and Filoni's intent for TCW show was clear. That Maul was trained by Sidious to one day be Master. And not as a mere tool like Ventress was to him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was laughing against Yoda only after the first slash of his blade, if I remember correctly, and when he threw pods.

It wasn't.

I never used the fact that Sidious enjoyed his fight against the brothers as proof.

As for Sidious enjoying his fight against Yoda, the official site makes it clear that Sidious ''knew he one day would have to eliminate Yoda'' and the novelization has it that Sidious is delighted to see Yoda.

It's more because Yoda was the most powerful Jedi, and for him to be destroyed would be the ultimate fall of the Jedi.

He laughs at Yoda twice in the Lightsaber duel. Once at the beginning and once towards the end of the Saber fight we see.

He then laughs his head off while throwing pods.

He enjoyed triumphing over Yoda as well as the Brothers. He likely would have enjoyed his triumph over Yoda a lot more, given that he was the much much greater challenge.

None of that means he was holding back against anyone.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It wouldn't. He says ''I'll say that much for him'', indicating he had to give Opress some kind of tribute with his death.

Neither TCW, Filoni or even Lucas for that matter gives two shits about power-scaling and other factors like ''holding back''. Lucas didn't mention anything about Sidious holding back against Mace, the idea comes from the description given by the novelization.

Filoni basically gives Opress credit for not being Blitz(like the 3 Council Members were). There would be no credit to give there if he meant for Sidious to be holding back.

Lucas does have an idea of power scales. After all it's from him that we know Yoda is the most Powerful Jedi, and Mace second most powerful.

Filoni does as well, syaing things like "Dooku isn't ready to challenge Sidious."

And Lucas does hint at Sidious holding back against Mace since he flat out says in the commentary that Sidious was pretending to be weak against Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

---------

Edit: Even if it does, it is a complete contradiction as later on in the [b]same book, Sidious gets faster and faster, indicating he had been holding back the entire time. [/B]

Not necessarily. Not giving your very best doesn't mean your holding back. If you ever spar, you'll know that you don't always give your very best jabs right from the onset of the fight.

Fact that he disarmed him pretty quickly in that last one on one in the novel doesn't suggest holding back Imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly none of this is Intrepid's point at all.

Intrepid confirmed it, so I think I'll take his word over yours.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second you bring up Filoni's comments, but make your own interpretation of it. Enjoying the fight is not at all implying he was holding back, as the Official Site itself confirms Sidious was enjoying his fight with Yoda.

Nope, I take all things into consideration and actually pay attention to the context of the fight at hand, while you harp on one single comment and ignore the context of the fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What Filoni does outright confirm (which you will never accept), that Opress simply did better against Sidious than those Jedi who got blitzed. That's it. That's the reason him and Maul were not blitzed because he did better than them.

As been brought out to you already, doing better against Sidious, who wasn't even taking him seriously and was clearly trolling him, does not mean he is better or faster than three jedi masters combined, especially considering that one of those masters (Kit Fisto) is on par with Kenobi, who is likely faster than Savage, in sheer speed judging from their respective performances against Grievous.

If Filoni's intention was to make Savage superior to the masters (which he never confirmed that's what his intention was), then he failed at doing it by outright stating that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, and depicting Sidious as being all laughs & smiles and being very relaxed & far less aggressive. We didn't see Sidious pulling unnecessary fancy stunts with his back turned while he was up against Mace & company, did we? So unless George Lucas depicted Sidious as having the same demeanor when he fought the council members as when he fought the brothers, then the comment is irrelevant when it comes to a versus forum.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Let's not pretend Sidious desperately needed Maul alive

That's just it, Sidious wasn't desperate at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and wouldn't be willing to chop him up if he was required to.

Clearly he didn't need to. He wanted to take Maul alive, and that's exactly what he did after beating his ass, humiliating him and torturing him. It was that simple.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for Dooku vs Kenobi in AOTC, you only have to read the novel for confirmation on just how one sided that whole fight was.

The same with Sidious' fight with the brothers. You only need to read the novel, or, ummm, just watch the episode "for confirmation on just how one sided that whole fight was." Hell, Filoni basically confirms it as a one sided fight, as does the official website.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ventress performed much better in her one on one. And Dooku actually resorted to using Force TK to take her down.

As I said, Dooku was flooring Ventress left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time. Conclusion: he was taking her more seriously and fighting her harder than he was ATOC Kenobi. You sure don't ignore context when it comes to those two duels, do you?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I concede that I have zero proof of Sidious' growth between Episode I and Episode III, but not everything needs to written on paper. It's pretty ridiculous to say that he didn't improve, in my opinion.

If you're trying to say that Sidious grew in power since his test/duel with Maul on Hypori, then you do have proof: Sidious grows more powerful after he kills Plagueis, which happens after Maul was 'supposedly' killed by Kenobi in TPM.

As for the other time when Sidious muses how his power had increased, that was pretty much when he was on his own, way after he went through his vigorous training under Darth Plagueis. Remember, Plagueis had denied Sidious anymore training and teaching, and left him on his own. There was no mention of Sidious going through any training at the time, yet he still increased in power over time, so it's not too far fetched for you to believe that his power increased during his chancellorship.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I know, but really, growing in power doesn't allude to every aspect.

Well Maul did pretty much imply that his combat ability (speed, strength, etc..) did improve with his increase in power and his training of Savage when he notes that despite how strong he has become, he was still in awe of Sidious' bladework and how Sidious predicted their every move before it happened, Otherwise his musing wouldn't make much sense. How would Maul's increase in power have anything to do with his fight with Sidious, unless he was somehow putting his increase of power to use.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not necessarily. Not giving your very best doesn't mean your holding back. If you ever spar, you'll know that you don't always give your very best jabs right from the onset of the fight.

Also sorry if just picking one of ur points to argue is a little rude but I don't have a comp right now so all my posting is done from my android.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But when the same individual has grown more powerful in the force, then you can bet that will effect all his abilities. Mual's TK was better because he grew more powerful in the Force. Not because his Force Mastery increased while he was mentally unstable on Lotho Minor all those years.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi also notes Maul is more powerful in Shadow Conspiracy. Since Kenobi hasn't even witnessed Maul's TK, the only possible explanation for that is he's witnessed the extra power in his combat performance.

Either way, this is wrong. One can feel anothers power through the force:

Palpatine restrained an impulse to reveal his true identity. Dooku was strong in the Force, and might simply be attempting to draw him out. On the other hand...

This despite Sidious knew nothing of Dooku's telekinetic powers.

Sidious also notes Plagueis' growth in power:

Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He only made that "clear" to Plaguies. Lucas's and Filoni's intent for TCW show was clear. That Maul was trained by Sidious to one day be Master. And not as a mere tool like Ventress was to him.

He laughs again. But this time, his laughter does not mock me. "You will do well, Lord Maul, " he says.

And my rage against him leaves, never to return. I am a Sith Lord. I am his instrument.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sidious had continued to hold him at arm's length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous.

-Labyrinth of Evil

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He laughs at Yoda twice in the Lightsaber duel. Once at the beginning and once towards the end of the Saber fight we see.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
None of that means he was holding back against anyone.

Point still stands.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni basically gives Opress credit for not being Blitz(like the 3 Council Members were). There would be no credit to give there if he meant for Sidious to be holding back.

Filoni's statement has absolutely nothing to do with the context of the fight, but rather Opress' own performance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas does have an idea of power scales. After all it's from him that we know Yoda is the most Powerful Jedi, and Mace second most powerful.

Filoni does as well, syaing things like "Dooku isn't ready to challenge Sidious."

Honestly, do you actually think that, when they choreographed the fight between Sidious and the brothers, they thought about Sidious holding back?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Lucas does hint at Sidious holding back against Mace since he flat out says in the commentary that Sidious was pretending to be weak against Mace.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If you're trying to say that Sidious grew in power since his test/duel with Maul on Hypori, then you do have proof: Sidious grows more powerful after he kills Plagueis, which happens after Maul was 'supposedly' killed by Kenobi in TPM.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As for the other time when Sidious muses how his power had increased, that was pretty much when he was on his own, way after he went through his vigorous training under Darth Plagueis. Remember, Plagueis had denied Sidious anymore training and teaching, and left him on his own. There was no mention of Sidious going through any training at the time, yet he still increased in power over time, so it's not too far fetched for you to believe that his power increased during his chancellorship.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How would Maul's increase in power have anything to do with his fight with Sidious, unless he was somehow putting his increase of power to use.

Despiste his increase in power, Maul acknowledges Sidious superiority through the force:

The commandos guarding the royal chamber reached for their throats. As Maul watched, an unseen forced lifted them high in the air, then slammed them to the floor, where they lay motionless in their red-and-black armor. The doors opened, then closed behind a figure in dark robes. A deep cowl hid most of the face, leaving only a pale chin and a downturned mouth visible. To most eyes the man in those simple robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.

Maul feels a terrible pleasure in the start of their fight with Sidious, this despite they, at this point, nearly hadn't crossed blades at all.

Then there's this:

Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition, he was driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia. He had worked and trained all his life for this moment, for a chance to meet a Jedi Knight in combat.

-The Phantom Menace

Maul, as of TPM, was clearly peaking in terms of physical attributes and technical skill. Although TCW Maul is clearly more powerful in terms of the force, whether he regained that skill is possible, but certainly not confirmed. Personally, I'd like to think of them as equals in everything but force powers.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I'm going to have to respectively disagree with u here. With the exception of other factors coming into play such as being sick or injured, if your not giving ur very best then ur holding back. Your literaly holding your very best back. Even in ur sparring example ur holding back if ur not giving ur best jabs at the beginning, ur holding them back for later. At least in my opinion.

Also sorry if just picking one of ur points to argue is a little rude but I don't have a comp right now so all my posting is done from my android.

In The Cestus Deception, Fisto, when sparring with Kenobi, is clearly the superior swordsman, this despite handicapping himself so much that Kenobi was able to keep up, and even then, Kenobi still sees that Fisto is faster than him.

Same thing goes for Sidious' fight with the brothers, in my opinion.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Intrepid confirmed it, so I think I'll take his word over yours.

By all means take his word for it:

Originally posted by Intrepid37

I never used the fact that Sidious enjoyed his fight against the brothers as proof.

How about actually paying attention to the conversation instead of just siding with him just because he's saying SIDIOUS SPEED BLITZ LULZ

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nope, I take all things into consideration and actually pay attention to the context of the fight at hand, while you harp on one single comment and ignore the context of the fight.

HAHA You use context? Yeah that's a joke. It's funny.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As been brought out to you already, doing better against Sidious, who wasn't even taking him seriously and was clearly trolling him, does not mean he is better or faster than three jedi masters combined, especially considering that one of those masters (Kit Fisto) is on par with Kenobi, who is likely faster than Savage, in sheer speed judging from their respective performances against Grievous.

Wow this is context for you??

That Fisto is on par with Kenobi. Yeah completely factual that, and not your biased speculation at all.

And basically nullifyng Filoni's comment to suit your own comments 👆

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Filoni's intention was to make Savage superior to the masters (which he never confirmed that's what his intention was),

LOL That's EXACTLY what he confirmed. I know you still cry over this. Because it clearly puts Opress> Fisto in speed, and overall combat ability.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
then he failed at doing it by outright stating that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, and depicting Sidious as being all laughs & smiles and being very relaxed & far less aggressive. We didn't see Sidious pulling unnecessary fancy stunts with his back turned while he was up against Mace & company, did we? So unless George Lucas depicted Sidious as having the same demeanor when he fought the council members as when he fought the brothers, then the comment is irrelevant when it comes to a versus forum.

Oh yeah great context and logic.

I guess Lucas also failed to show us that Yoda was a greater threat than the Jedi Council, since Sidious was serious against the 2 Council Members but laughing his ass off against Yoda. 👆

Another fact you like to overlook, since this and Filoni's comment about Opress performing better are all that's needed to prove all your extensive arguments completely wrong on this topic.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Clearly he didn't need to. He wanted to take Maul alive, and that's exactly what he did after beating his ass, humiliating him and torturing him. It was that simple. The same with Sidious' fight with the brothers. You only need to read the novel, or, ummm, just watch the episode "for confirmation on just how one sided that whole fight was." Hell, Filoni basically confirms it as a one sided fight, as does the official website..

Yeah and? How does that prove he could have Super Blitzed him?

Oh that's right? It doesn't. It's just you going off on a random rant again.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

As I said, Dooku was flooring Ventress left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time. Conclusion: he was taking her more seriously and fighting her harder than he was ATOC Kenobi. You sure don't ignore context when it comes to those two duels, do you?

Oh he floored Ventress.. Wow! Right yeah that's a lot better than cutting Kenobi's arm and leg!

Your the one ignoring the context with the Sidious vs Maul brothers fight.

He was there to "Destroy his Rivals". That was his primary goal.

It's actually the only and best fight we have to see if Sidious could blitzed the Maul brothers(or Jedi on a similar level), but clearly he can not in a Saber fight.

What the fight does prove is he can take out opponents on that level much faster Via Force TK attacks.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I'm going to have to respectively disagree with u here. With the exception of other factors coming into play such as being sick or injured, if your not giving ur very best then ur holding back. Your literaly holding your very best back. Even in ur sparring example ur holding back if ur not giving ur best jabs at the beginning, ur holding them back for later. At least in my opinion.

That's not holding back in the sense that "Oh I don't want to hurt this person" or "I'll handicap myself so that it's a better fight."

Not giving your best hits right at the start is just a normal thing to do in a fight, conserve energy for later, measure the distance in your head, e.t.c. It's just normal combat strategy. It's not holding back with intention of not winning, or prolonging the fight.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious improved twice after fighting Maul on Hypori and after his demonstration of superior speed.

Ok. But Hypori was when he did take him on once in a fit of rage.

Whatever happened before that is ppointless to bring up because he had been starved for days/weeks. And was completely fatigued.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Quote?

Either way, this is wrong. One can feel anothers power through the force:

Palpatine restrained an impulse to reveal his true identity. Dooku was strong in the Force, and might simply be attempting to draw him out. On the other hand...

This despite Sidious knew nothing of Dooku's telekinetic powers.

Sidious also notes Plagueis' growth in power:

Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side.

Quote was from when Kenobi is thinking just before he takes on btoh brothers.

But I concede this point as I just remembered Maul Force Choked Kenobi in Sith Hunters.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Wrong.

He laughs again. But this time, his laughter does not mock me. "You will do well, Lord Maul, " he says.

And my rage against him leaves, never to return. I am a Sith Lord. I am his instrument.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sidious had continued to hold him at arm's length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous.

-Labyrinth of Evil

No your completely wrong on this point. Lucas's intention is above all these sources you've quoted.

And the first one in Maul's Journal you've taken out of context. Maul saw himself as Sidious's tool but also his heir.

The second one is just what Dooku thinks.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He only laughs once in his lightsaber duel with Yoda, in the start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE

At least twice during the Lightsaber fight. 2:05 and 2:20. But I may have got confused between the end og the Lightsaber fight and the begninning of throwing the pods at 2:40. After which he's just laughing his ass off.

Point is even at the throwing pods scene, he was never holding back.

And the official site confirms Sidious's enjoyment at battling Yoda.

So no Sidious enjoying the fight and laughing is not proof at all of him holding back.

I've proven this many times but some people just don't want to accept this as they need to use it as their "obvious" context to the fight. Well that context clearly isn't a factor. At all.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. He also says ''for him to take on Darth Sidious'' <-loose paraphrase of mine. Clearly he did not ''take on'' Sidious.

Filoni's statement has absolutely nothing to do with the context of the fight, but rather Opress' own performance.

This is ridiculous. Of course it has to do with the context of the fight, otherwise it would be a pointless comparison.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Honestly, do you actually think that, when they choreographed the fight between Sidious and the brothers, they thought about Sidious holding back?

No, I don't think it was in their minds at all that Sidious has gone there to fight with "reduced speed" Lol.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I was talking about the way Sidious had set it all up.

Where's that explained in the novel? Either way it's obvious the novel will always give us greater depth. That's the same for all films.