Oh no, not this again..
Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's absolutely zero proof that Maul grew more than Sidious did.
Point is when they fought in TCW they both had a different power set. You can't just assume that they both increased in power and speed by the exact same %.
So Arhael's point is that the fight we saw in "The Lawless" was the best way to judge how they compare to each other, and not hypothetical assumptions on how much each should have/could have improved in speed since TPM days.
But if I were to guess I would say Maul improved more, due to his massive rage increase. I wouldn't think Sidious improved a whole lot since becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Point is when they fought in TCW they both had a different power set. You can't just assume that they both increased in power and speed by the exact same %.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So Arhael's point is that the fight we saw in "The Lawless" was the best way to judge how they compare to each other, and not hypothetical assumptions on how much each should have/could have improved in speed since TPM days.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But if I were to guess I would say Maul improved more, due to his massive rage increase. I wouldn't think Sidious improved a whole lot since becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy.
Either assume that neither grew in speed, or that they both grew equally much.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Right. So why even assume it? Why not use the speed difference between them that has been shown?
We are. The speed difference that was shown in their fight in TCW is the most credible source.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not the ''best way to judge how they compare to each other'' considering I have already proven Maul can't even see Sidious.
Without getting into the fact that Jedi clearly don't have invisible Flash type speed, you forget that a Jedi/Sith doesn't need to see what they're fighting to fight them. Unless you think Jedi really see every blaster shot that comes their way. And unless you think Sidious is faster than a Blaster shot.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
What you guess isn't good enough. Plagueis muses in the middle of the book that he can feel Sidious' power growing. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia confirms that Sidious yet again grew in power after Plagueis was slain.
Yeah and by how much? And for how long was he growing in power? It's all speculation.
TCW Maul and Sidious have different power sets. So you can't use TPM time period to prove Maul would get blitzed by Sidious, especially when T-Canon shows otherwise.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Either assume that neither grew in speed, or that they both grew equally much.
That's a bit silly. We don't know who grew more. The best way to judge is their fight in TCW.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We are. The speed difference that was shown in their fight in TCW is the most credible source.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
TCW Maul and Sidious have different power sets. So you can't use TPM time period to prove Maul would get blitzed by Sidious, especially when T-Canon shows otherwise.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's a bit silly. We don't know who grew more. The best way to judge is their fight in TCW.
It is only fair to both parties to speculate that they would grow equally or not grow at all.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah and by how much? And for how long was he growing in power? It's all speculation.
This is before he kills Plagueis.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you forget that a Jedi/Sith doesn't need to see what they're fighting to fight them.
Originally posted by Intrepid37Listen. You can easily argue that Maul grew more (fanboyish, lacks proof) as easily as I can argue that Sidious grew more (also fanboyish, lacks proof).
It is only fair to both parties to speculate that they would grow equally or not grow at all.
Since there's no way at all to know that it's much more fair to put all biases aside and judge from their CW fight.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious knew that his own powers had increased [b]tenfold over the decades, but he couldn't be certain he had learned all of Plagueis's secrets-"his sorcerer's ways," as the Sun Guards referred to them-including the ability to prevent beings from dying.This is before he kills Plagueis.[/B]
Which is after Maul saw him as invisible right? Where's the evidence Sidious became significantly more powerful after that?
It seems unlikely considering he was rarely even in combat over the next 10 years.
Originally posted by Intrepid37True to an extent, but it is clear that it only took a ''flinch, one twitch of a muscle'' for Maul to die.
Not TCW Maul. Even on Hypori Maul did show sufficient speed to fight Sidious (while in a rage).
Speed that was clearly praised by Plagueis.
The facts are these.... Kenobi has many feats that show he wouldn't be blitzed right away by Sids... He's countered and disarmed (2limbs) of somebody using 20 strikes per second. Speed hasn't been shwon to overwhlem him yet. Shit, even when he's fighting two foes at the same time. Anyways, Sids isn't in this match and I don't think Mace or Dooku couldn't overwhelm him before let's say Yoda could beat Dooku.
KT I seem to remember you agreeing that Sids took it easy on Maul and Opress. In which case you should agree that Sids would Blitz Kenobi.
Because IF he can do it to Maul and Opress then there's no way Kenobi would do any better.
Of course I don't think he was "slowing down" when fighting Maul and Opress, but you should make up your mind on the matter instead of switching stances when it suits you.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The holorecording... if it's the holorecording where Maul fights Sidious, it is not valid: of course Maul's gonna look impressive when he's able to react to Sidious' blows.
No, he didn't see Maul's duel with Sidious. Plagueis was impressed by Maul's performance against the droids. And as fast and impressive as he found Darth Maul to be, he still did not think he was good enough to put up a fight against Sidious, otherwise he wouldn't have made the comment about Sidious allowing Maul to believe that he was more skilled than he actually was.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since there's no way at all to know that it's much more fair to put all biases aside and judge from their CW fight.
I have proven Sidious is too fast for Maul to even see. This alone suggests that he held back enormously during his fight against the brother. What you need to prove is that Maul has improved drastically more than Sidious in terms of speed: from the point where he is too slow to even see Sidious to the point where he can fight at the same speed level as Sidious.
There is no evidence given for such a statement, and I assure you, none exists.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which is after Maul saw him as invisible right? Where's the evidence Sidious became significantly more powerful after that?It seems unlikely considering he was rarely even in combat over the next 10 years.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not TCW Maul.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even on Hypori Maul did show sufficient speed to fight Sidious (while in a rage).
Maul muses that it is ''Painfully obvious that he is playing with me and that ''he can kill me in a heartbeat''.
In the same fight, Sidious is so fast that he vanishes before Maul attacks:
I parry the blow and reverse, come at him from the opposite side. But he is already gone by the time I am able to make my attack. The lunge throws off my balance. I weave, the cave walls blurring. He laughs.
As for when Maul gets enraged, it is clearly power he had never felt before:
A slow rage begins to burn through me. It is a terrible anger, no less fierce because it starts as a kernel of disbelief and then builds. I have never felt anything like it. I know it can consume me.
Even then, he still only sees Sidious as a blur:
I will not be able to deflect the next blow. It will rend me in two. In a blur of heat and pain I see the mighty power of my Master raised against me, see the lightsaber come toward me, see my death as clearly as a bone-white moon in an ebony sky.
In their fight in TCW, Siidous is able to sense every one of their moves before they made them. If he could, and Shadow Conspiracy makes it clear that Sidious pounds on every mistake, why is it he did not strike down either of the brothers before he wanted to?
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. You simply cannot dismiss the speed difference shown in the Maul's journal. Arheal made a honorable attempt at proving me wrong by noting out time timeline in which this was done, but the same goes for Sidious. I have proven Sidious is too fast for Maul to even see.
Does Sidious move faster than a Blaster Bolt? If not there's no reason to assume Maul can not react to him.
Fact is we have 7 Star Wars films now and an animated series. And at no point in all of higher canon is any Jedi or Sith been shown to be too fast to even see. Especially not by other Jedi/Sith.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
This alone suggests that he held back enormously during his fight against the brother. What you need to prove is that Maul has improved drastically more than Sidious in terms of speed: from the point where he is too slow to even see Sidious to the point where he can fight at the same speed level as Sidious.
Not really. Even if what you prove is true within the context of TPM time and in the context of C-Canon. Even that is not enough to overwrite a fight shown in T-Canon which takes place 10 years later in continuity.
Especially when we have the Supervising Director of that show flat out confirm that Savage Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than the 3 Council members who Sidious blitzed. Given that your going have to give much better evidence that Sidious can blitzed Maul within a second.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The quote I provided was early in Plagueis. Later, when he kills Plagueis, he does so ''upon gaining the skill and ability to do so'' (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia).
Right so where your proof that Sidious's combat abilities improved at all since TPM? We canonically know that Maul's did.
Originally posted by Intrepid37As for when Maul gets enraged, it is clearly power he had never felt before:
As was the power he felt in TCW time period.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Even then, he still only sees Sidious as a blur:
Sidious was confirmed in the Dark Side source book to have "barely deflected his blows" once Maul was in a rage enhanced state.
Not to mention you seem to be ignoring that this whole fight took place after Maul had been fighting and starving for days. Or was it weeks?
I agree,Savage did do better than those masters.
Maul was starving and fighting for weeks.
I do remember reading that.
Which still made the test that much exciting to read.
IMO,Maul did grew in power,but Sidious taught Maul everything he knows.
You have to admit he didn't teach Maul everything he knew.
Sidious (imo) only grew in Power when he executed Order 66 and the Jedi Purge.
IMO Sidious was at a level where Maul wasn't quite there yet due to his mechanical lower half.
But hey this the dark side where things were considered un-natural due to Alchemy and Sorcery.
This is Star Wars and The Force anything can happen...
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The only thing you're doing is adding your opinion onto the quote which states no such thing.
lolHe tells me I am weak, not worthy of being a Sith Lord. He tells me he has misjudged me. I attempt to attack him. The ball of anger inside me turns to howling rage. It is painfully obvious that he is playing with me. He can kill me in a heartbeat. Yet something in me will not accept this, even from my Master. My life force won't allow it. I struggle on, even in the face of his laughter.
I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.
This does not qualify as proof. I have proven that that Sidious can move faster than Maul's eye. The fact that Maul can see Sidious throughout the duel in TCW makes it painfully obvious that he wasn't serious.
Sidious himself make no attempt to dismiss it but rather asks if Plagueis did not do the same for him. Had it not been true, Sidious would've answered differently.
The holorecording... if it's the holorecording where Maul fights Sidious, it is not valid: of course Maul's gonna look impressive when he's able to react to Sidious' blows.
It's not, no.Even if it was, I'm not sure what your point is.
It does, actually.Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
-Dark Rendezvous
It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
Not fast enough.
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance.
-Attack of the Clones
Second quote is non-canon. Dooku in film did not make a single step back, they evenly exchanged blows circling around each other with Dooku finishing on the offensive.
Being faster =/= being able to blitz. In The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, Dooku is portrayed as faster than Kenobi, but not fast enough to blitz him.
Luke reached out. The Force was here, as it was everywhere, and it was no harder to touch deep in space than it was in the swamps on Dagobah. He let it fill him. The TIE fighters suddenly seemed to be moving slower. Luke’s hands flew over the controls; he moved the stick with sharp and precise movements. Swung to his starboard and lit the lasers, double-tapped the fire button.Anakin and Kenobi reacts to ships at lightspeed/sublightspeed:
Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.
As of second quote. Jedi achieve it by anticipation. They know in advance what action to take. It's ridiculous to assume that they have reaction/perception faster than sub-light speed.
Mace was faster than Vastor. So what?Vastor's attacks were blinding fast for Windu, which means he couldn't percept them properly just like Maul couldn't - Sidious.
Tell that to Tiin and Kolar.
What's your point?
Sidious demonstrated higher speed against Yoda than against Mace. So what?
He did show why Sidious is the master. Filoni refers to it as Sidious ''kicking butt'' of other Villains. Sidious was clearly dominating the entire fight.
Except Dooku has been confirmed to be faster than Kenobi + he, unarmed, evades all Opress' attacks, suggesting he is faster.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERSidious was confirmed in the Dark Side source book to have "barely deflected his blows" once Maul was in a rage enhanced state.
Not to mention you seem to be ignoring that this whole fight took place after Maul had been fighting and starving for days. Or was it weeks?
Here is the quote itself:
Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he
drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling
himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his
master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows.
Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul
spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood.
Author's narration, sourcebook. Perfect.
He seems to have played with him.
“I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand.”
Plagueis turned fully to face him. “Rather than punish him for disobedience, you praised his resolve.”
“He was already humbled. I chose to leave his honor intact. I proclaimed him my myrmidon; the embodiment of the violent half of our partnership.”
“Partnership?” Plagueis repeated harshly.
“His and mine; not ours.”
“Regardless, you allowed him to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is.”
“Did you not do the same for me?”
Plagueis’s eyes reflected disappointment. “Never, Sidious. I have always been truthful with you.”
-Darth Plagueis