I don't ''disregard'' it. In fact, I haven't disregarded anything. In fact, I explicitly asked how big the ship that Cade threw was. In fact, I noted Dooku's superiority as ''alleged''. When Nephthys said he wasn't sure of that superiority, I agreed. I also noted that Krayt seemed beastly.
So no, I'm not disregarding anything.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Duel_at_the_Lake_of_Apparitions
I just downloaded the book so I'll look for more specific things.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't ''disregard'' it. In fact, I haven't disregarded anything. In fact, I explicitly asked how big the ship that Cade threw was.
It's hard to tell the precise size since it was part in a swamp, but 'bigger than the stone columns Dooku lifted in that big TK feat' to be sure.
Originally posted by ares834
What issue/story arc was it? I can get the scans if you know.
It's one of the early ones, I think 3 or 4? The ship is a wreck, and in the one panel the whole thing can be see it's some distance from Cade and a reasonably sizable transport. Smaller than the Falcon, but he does just toss the whole thing.
For a more defensive TK feat, in #46 he shields himself and Deliah Blue from a giant explosion.
Was gonna address the previous 3 pages post-by-post, but point-by-point might be a little easier.
I.
That Krayt was unequaled in his time does not automatically confer superiority over Dooku, who is a duelist of another time. That Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in all of galactic history does not automatically affirm the reverse.
II.
Questioning the caliber of Krayt and Dooku's respective opponents is a legitimate line of inquiry. Both sides have offered pertinent points: both Dooku's Nightsisters and Krayt's Imperial Knights are presently featless. Neither are without some measure of repute: Karis and Naa'leth were endorsed by Talzin as the greatest warriors of the Nightsister clan and the Imperial Knights, as protectors of the galactic sovereign, are likely to be highly trained warriors.
I'm more familiar with Dooku's brawl with the Nightsisters than Krayt's slaughter of the Knights, but I'm not instinctively impressed by one over the other: Krayt killed them fairly quickly whereas Dooku's was a more protracted struggle. On the other hand, the Count was not in full command of his faculties whereas Krayt presumably was.
III.
Everyone's got their biases. Let's evaluate by strength of argument instead.
IV.
That Dooku considered Andeddu a "great Sith Lord" does not mean Krayt's victory over the man who defeated Andeddu confers superiority over the Count. Dooku refers to Maul as a "great Sith" in "Witches of the Mist""Monster" but I don't see him losing to Maul.
V.
Krayt acquitted himself well against Abeloth, yes. But if he were truly pound-for-pound Luke's equal... wouldn't his performance against Celeste Morne and Karness Muur have been dramatically different?
VI.
Cade's manipulation of that wreck is impressive. However, it doesn't appear to be any larger than the shuttle Maul hurled at his pursuers in "Revival." And Dooku is almost certainly a superior Force user than he.
VII.
I'm persuaded that Krayt can pull a victory here. He has another lifetime's worth of experience and a number of potentially decisive tricks at his disposal. But Dooku is enormously powerful and skilled. In terms of strict swordsmanship, I'm inclined to give him an edge as well in raw Force might. If Krayt wins, and he very well may, it won't be a stomp.
I think the majority agrees with you barring Intrepid and Steve. Karyt seems better but not by much. Its like:
Tier 1: Luke, Palpatine, Nihilus, Vitiate, Yoda, Bane, Ones, (Hero of Tython maybe).
Tier 2: Dooku, Vader, Windu, Krayt, Zannah, Caedus, Malgus, Revan (???) Other Tier 2 people I can't be bothered to write up.
Tier 3: Who cares?
Theres obviously like 'high tier 2' or whatever, but they're still in the same ball park.
I still think people have always been a little disingenuous in ranking Yoda among the absolute most powerful Force Users, especially if you honor the movie's portrayal of him. I feel if you put the entirety of the EU into perspective you cannot realistically conclude that he's truly among the most powerful.
I still think people have always been a littleexceptionally disingenuous when thinking that stylistic decisions and discrepancies are ironclad and legitimate, somehow concluding that -- for some bizarre reason -- film-era characters are just weirdly weaker than others. As if Bane, in a George Lucas movie, really would be deflecting rainstorms with his lightsaber and collapsing temples. 🙄
Krayt acquitted himself well against Abeloth, yes. But if he were truly pound-for-pound Luke's equal... wouldn't his performance against Celeste Morne and Karness Muur have been dramatically different?
I agree that he's not Luke's equal, but three things to say about that.
Morne, he was overwhelming and had control of the fight because he wanted her to surrender, he had use for her.
Once Muur took the drivers seat, things got serious... then a Jedi Master stabbed him in the back when they were starting out.
And finally, that was Armored Krayt. Resurrected Krayt > Krayt fighting off the vong symbionts in him.
Everything before his return, as strong a force as he is there, is Krayt with a handicap.
Tier 1: Luke, Palpatine, Nihilus, Vitiate, Yoda, Bane, Ones, (Hero of Tython maybe).Tier 2: Dooku, Vader, Windu, Krayt, Zannah, Caedus, Malgus, Revan (???) Other Tier 2 people I can't be bothered to write up.
I'd put Bane in the second group as well. But pretty much, yea.
Tier 2 I'd classify as "truly powerful/strongest in a normal era," tier 1 as the "Exceptional of all time/strongest of an exceptional era."
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I still think people have always beena littleexceptionally disingenuous when thinking that stylistic decisions and discrepancies are ironclad and legitimate, somehow concluding that -- for some bizarre reason -- film-era characters are just weirdly weaker than others. As if Bane, in a George Lucas movie, really would be deflecting rainstorms with his lightsaber and collapsing temples. 🙄
Well I don't believe a question of style has ever been a prevalent defense regarding Yoda's placement in the power hierarchy of Force Users in the first place, presently or historically, among the majority and more significant members of this forum. For the most part I am referring to people who fully take into consideration the greater feats we've seen performed in canon and still wish to argue that what Yoda performs is comparatively impressive which is largely what I disagree with.
I also don't believe you can claim that fluctuations in power levels are always a product of differences in style; while there are cases where the creators have basically made that clear, such as The Force Unleashed or the original Clone Wars cartoons, if you wish to look at Bane as an example not only is he explored within a medium that lends itself to more accurate, realistic interpretations given its detailed and literal nature (whereas animation and comic books have a strong predisposition for visual exaggerations and inaccuracies and are usually marketed towards a younger audience that don't put as much thought into narrative realism and consistency) but his demonstrations of power make complete sense within the wider context of the narrative with regards to his character, his role and his progression. Bane's story was essentially the story of a prophesied being, an instrument of change destined for big things that clearly relied on both his intellect and his exceptional power to proceed with his plans, and everything that he performed was consistent with the events and descriptions found in the novel (many of which had already been an established part of canon for years). I believe you would have a much harder case arguing that Bane's power level was more a matter of style rather than the creative vision Drew Karpyshyn had for the story he was telling (bare in mind I'm limiting these points to PoD as I have yet to read DoE and RoT isn't entirely).
The films do not preclude the possibility that there could have existed vastly greater Force Users throughout history than the ones we are presented with in the films and in the face of strong evidence that would suggest as much I don't think it's an entirely inaccurate viewpoint.
In any event I don't think people necessarily disagree that these discrepancies largely are owing to the fact that there are clearly differences in style; for the most part I believe people would consider stuff like TFU to be widely exaggerated but that doesn't prevent them from creating threads with Galen Marek and considering the full scope of what he displayed in those games. I think it's a case where people would rather not limit these hypothetical scenarios by keeping everything consistent with canon and it's not something I necessarily disagree with and would probably have a slightly different opinion if a thread were specifically addressing CW Yoda or DE Sidious or something, but the truth is that there's only really been a universal use of the Yoda character in these forums, and that character will in general terms always be limited by his lower showings in the highest form of canon, and by comparison he does not compare to the higher end combatants. And while his showings in the Eu have been significantly greater they still do not stack up with the kinds of things we've seen performed by other characters in the EU so i wouldn't suggest that his CW cartoon incarnation be included among their number either.
And lastly now you're just speaking in crazy hypotheticals, GL did not possess the creative brilliance and masterful storytelling to create a character as marvelously fabulous as Bane and chances are that if he wanted to put the character in one of his movies, Drew simply wouldn't allow it.
