Ben Kenobi vs Count Dooku

Originally posted by Nephthys
So really, how is Anakin a tier or two above Windu? Because I'm not seeing it so far.

There's no way Sidious would speed blitz Windu or Skywalker in Sabers when Gillard has put them both in the same league as Sidious and Yoda.

I realize Gillard may not be a completely canon source, but he did have discussions with Lucas before making the levels. So if we're to believe Sidious would Saber blitz Anakin/Mace then either Gillard completely ignored Lucas when making his levels, or he was simply high when he made them.

Skywalker can't compete with Sidious because he would simply get Force stomped the same way Maul/Opress got force stomped.. Mace is weaker than Sidious in the Force but he's powerful enough not to simply get Force stomped any second that Sidious decides to Force stomp.

What has skill to do with speed?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Cmon lol. In the third scan it's easy to see.

It's Anakin's only appearance where I like him.

lol
Scream is a [b]dark side power. Jedi are light side users. This means it's a power he normally doesn't use, but it doesn't mean it doesn't showcase his abilities. [/B]

I'm seriously not seeing it. What on earth makes you think its going faster?

Meh.

Omg, how are you not understanding this? Anakin is more powerful than he normally is when he draws on his rage and hate. He normally does not do this. It doesn't showcase his abilities because he can't do it normally, nor is he normally that powerful.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I ****ing hate Anakin but he's so underrated on this board it's ridiculous. Collapsing a thirty meter tall/ninety meter wide hall is the best PT power feat bar Sidious/Yoda. His strength feats are the best besides perhaps Sidious. His speed feats are the best besides Sidious/Yoda. His skills are on roughly Dooku's level. His vast Force energies allow him to keep him going. So please, don't come with your BS. Mace has trouble moving a tank. Anakin collapses something far bigger with less struggle.

It isn't, Dooku has superior feats and Windu is equal to Dooku. Plus Anakin only achieved that feat through an involuntary burst of rage. Savage is stronger than him. Windu is faster than him. Winsu is more skilled than him. He's crappy at drawing on his power. Anakin has trouble fighting Savage Opress, Ventress, Barriss Offee and others. He is not as awesome as you are making him out to be.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm seriously not seeing it. What on earth makes you think its going faster?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Omg, how are you not understanding this? Anakin is more powerful than he normally is when he draws on his rage and hate. He normally does not do this. It [b]doesn't showcase his abilities because he can't do it normally, nor is he normally that powerful. [/B]

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't, Dooku has superior feats

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu is equal to Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus Anakin only achieved that feat through an involuntary burst of rage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Savage is stronger than him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu is faster than him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Winsu is more skilled than him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's crappy at drawing on his power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin has trouble fighting Savage Opress, Ventress, Barriss Offee and others.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He is not as awesome as you are making him out to be.

@Nephthys
Dooku has superior feats to regular Anakin. If we'll compare him to Anakin, who is using the dark side, then they are more like equal (Dooku has greater knowledge, and Anakin has greater raw power).
Mace is equal to Dooku as swordmaster, not force user. In the force Dooku is above Windu.
Regular Anakin has a trobule fighting those people. Anakin who is using his anger, is far above them. He defeated Asajj with the force at least twice. It looks like Mace was unable to do that, and Ventress was able to run from him after a short lighstaber duel.

Anakin outright stomped Ventress in Republic.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What has skill to do with speed?

He was obviously talking about overall prowess, not just technical skill. If Sidious could speed blitz Mace/Anakin, then they wouldn't be on the same Saber level as Sids. End of.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

What? Windu's speed is about equal to Obi-Wan or Maul, below Anakin's.

Urm no.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Is this a joke? Mace only fought Ventress evenly, only fought Bulq evenly, only fought Grievous evenly while Grievous' movement was restricted, only fought Saesee Tiin evenly.

No no no.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was obviously talking about overall prowess,

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm no.

Yes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No no no.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

.

Are you kidding me? He said you can jump from an 8 to a 9 by embracing the added power of the dark side. Common sense tells us that technical skill will not increase by changing sides.

You haven't proven that he was talking about overall prowess. You also haven't proven that Mace is faster than Obi-Wan or Maul

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You haven't proven that he was talking about overall prowess. You also haven't proven that Mace is faster than Obi-Wan or Maul

How are Maul and Kenobi on par with Mace in speed if the latter can compete with Sidious in lightsaber combat?

He can't. 😛

Mace: Formed webs, fought invisibly fast, fought faster than thought, fought faster than Vastor.

Kenobi: Formed shields, fought invisibly fast, ran in a blur, fought faster than Qui-Gon.

Maul: Formed webs/shields, ran invisibly fast, ran in a blur, fought faster than Qui-Gon.

Anakin: Encased himself in light, appear in several places at once, outran speeders, filled Dooku's entire line of sight with a blurring haze.

Anakin's just better. 😬

When Lucas was aksed, why Agen, Kit ans Saesee died so fast, he answered: one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine. It means, that Palpatine couldn't blitz Mace (or Anakin).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for Count Dooku, Lucas's statement was in reference to the Jedi Mace took with him to challenge Sidious. Dooku is neither a Jedi, nor is he even alive at the point in question.

👆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also it depends what Lucas means by "compete"? Does he mean just put up a fight, or does he mean actually having a chance at defeating Sidious?

I think, it's about putting a fight.

I don't think, that Mace was faster then Anakin. In ROTS novel (which I personally hate) Anakin is described as a fastest jedi of his era.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling fasterand faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze(...)

Dooku's interpretation of Anakin's speed, when he's to tired to use the force.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still abit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that bePalpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast thatAnakin could not truly see them—[i]but he could feel them in the Force.[/b]

In a Stover's interpretation, it was impossible to see any Jedi/Sith's moves, without using the force.

I doubt, than Anakin might be able to see Grievou's moves (20 strikes per second?). But he could easily saw it by using the force.

In terms of speed, Sidious and Yoda were probably fastest swordmasters. Only Yoda, Windu and Anakin could compete the Emperor. But the same be told about Yoda - in DM😖H Yoda sparred with Plo, Depa and Saesee, and none of them was even able to touch him. So I would say, that you have to be either Sidious, Dooku or Anakin to compete Yoda.

Anyway, this Lucas quote is probably retconed by TCW. Filoni stated, that Opress did better work against Sidious then other Jedi Masters. I'm wondering, if this means, that Sidious couldn't blitz Maul or Savage?

Mace and Dooku weren't that fast. Depa was able to fought Mace equally. So was Sora. Windu couldn't blitz Ventress.
Dooku on the other hand, couldn't blitz Bulq or tholme or Asajj.

So we can't say, that "you have to be either Dooku, Yoda, Sidious or Anakin to compete Mace". Coz much more Jedi could.

I'm not sure how fast Anakin was. But if you guys treat Stover's novel as a canon, then he could be even faster then Yoda. For me it's BS.

The RotS novel just says that Anakin is the fastest Jedi of his generation. Neither Windu or Yoda are in his generation.

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest.

I'm not sure about your interpretation of this.

Its saying he's the most powerful, fastest and strongest Jedi of his generation. Unless you think its talking about Anakin being the most powerful, fastest and strongest Jedi of any generation in which case.... no. 😬

Theres a reason Yoda and Windu can challenge Sidious and Anakin can't. Theres also numerous Jedi I would place before Anakin. He's not even in the top 10.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Third scan, second panel or whatever it's called.

I'm not seeing anything. I think you might be thinking that because its on fire and bits are breaking off, but thats just because its getting closer to the sun. You can see it start to enter the suns "atmosphere" on the second page.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Scream is an involuntary power, so he didn't ''draw on his rage and hate'' to amplify his power. It just happened. And besides, Anakin is always mad.

😬

No, he did draw on his hate and rage. You said that the power draws on hate and rage. Just because its involuntary doesn't mean it wouldn't be boosted involuntarily. And Anakin IS always mad, but he's always suppressing those feelings, making him very conflicted in fights.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Lol.

Dooku's owned Ventress with a finger (not like that, you dirty boy). He ripped a huge metal structure out of a wall. He lifted about a hundred tons of rock quite easily. He's consistently shown that he's better than Anakin in Force abilities.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In power? Lol.

I'm not seeing anything suggesting otherwise.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And still did it with ease. So by that logic, he would still be doing it with mid-trouble. Also, Anakin usually has a harder time performing on a high level when he is really mad because his emotions hinder him.

Your not taking into account that Anakin was tapping into his hate and rage. We've seen him get huge boosts by that, like how he went from losing to Ventress to stomping her, or how he stomped Dooku in RotS.

I'm writing this feat off almost entirely now.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nope.

Lol, Savage pushed Obi-Wan and Anakin back at the same time with his strikes. He smacked Dooku across the room and disarmed him with one hit. Anakin and Obi-Wan tried to wrestle him into submission at the same time and failed to make him even budge.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What? Windu's speed is about equal to Obi-Wan or Maul, below Anakin's.

Lawl.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That might or might not be true.

Pfft, Windu created his own lightsaber style. His technical mastery is well above Anakins. I believe the best accolade for Anakins lightsaber skill is Dooku commenting that his Djem So is as good as anyones he'd seen. Hardly Windu level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I actually meant his Force reserves so he can fight for a long time without tiring.

Hasn't he gotten tired in many fights in the Clone Wars?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Is this a joke? Mace only fought Ventress evenly, only fought Bulq evenly, only fought Grievous evenly while Grievous' movement was restricted, only fought Saesee Tiin evenly.

Ventress ran away, he beat Bulq, he beat Grievous and I don't know about the Tiin one but lmfao at that.

^

Its saying he's the most powerful, fastest and strongest Jedi of his generation.

I disagree. It saying, that he's the most powerful jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. Besides that, he is strongest and fastest jedi. It doesn't mean, that he's most powerful.

Theres a reason Yoda and Windu can challenge Sidious and Anakin can't.

Yoda and Mace can just compete with Sidious. Anakin on the other hand:
If Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor.

Pfft, Windu created his own lightsaber style. His technical mastery is well above Anakins. I believe the best accolade for Anakins lightsaber skill is Dooku commenting that his Djem So is as good as anyones he'd seen. Hardly Windu level.

Well, according to Lucas and Gillard Anakin was in the same league with Mace in terms of lightsaber combat.

(...) he beat Bulq,

Depends of the interpretation. It looks like Sora wasn't unconscious after Mace's push - just before Windu left this place when they fought, he said to Bulq, that he was right, and real fight wasn't there. I doubt, that he would talk to unconscious guy.
So, in my opinion, it's mistake to assume that Bulq was beaten.

Originally posted by Zett
^

Its saying he's the most powerful, fastest and strongest Jedi of his generation.

I disagree. It saying, that he's the most powerful jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. Besides that, he [b]is strongest and fastest jedi. It doesn't mean, that he's most powerful.[/b]

You don't say. The "perhaps" isn't convincing in the slightest. Yoda is demonstrably stronger and faster than Anakin. And he and others are demonstrably more powerful than him, not accounting for Anakins potential. The truth is that Anakin is none of those things. Its just Stover wanking people like he always does.

Even if you take this quote as accurate, Stover contradicts it later by calling Yoda the most devastatingly powerful foe of darkness ever.

Originally posted by Zett
Theres a reason Yoda and Windu can challenge Sidious and Anakin can't.

Yoda and Mace can just compete with Sidious. Anakin on the other hand:

If Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor.

Thats ambiguous as to whether Lucas was talking about Anakin as of RotS or some time in the future. And he's obviously talking about the latter. Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan, you seriously think he has a chance vs Sidious?

Originally posted by Zett
Pfft, Windu created his own lightsaber style. His technical mastery is well above Anakins. I believe the best accolade for Anakins lightsaber skill is Dooku commenting that his Djem So is as good as anyones he'd seen. Hardly Windu level.

Well, according to Lucas and Gillard Anakin was in the same league with Mace in terms of lightsaber combat.

I believe he only said that in regards to Anakin receiving a dark side boost.

Originally posted by Zett
(...) he beat Bulq,

Depends of the interpretation. It looks like Sora wasn't unconscious after Mace's push - just before Windu left this place when they fought, he said to Bulq, that he was right, and real fight wasn't there. I doubt, that he would talk to unconscious guy.
So, in my opinion, it's mistake to assume that Bulq was beaten.

Meh.

Well, Stover doesn't contradicts his own words. In his first quote he used "perhaps". But finally, he declarated Yoda as the most powerful Jedi. So Anakin was just strongest, fastest Jedi, and the most powerful Jedi of his generation.

Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan(...)

Yeah, that's true. But I'm a fan of theory, that Anakin wasn't as strong on Mustafar as he was on IH or Jedi Temple. And it's not because of his skill, but because of his state of mind.

Regular Anakin was just a bit above Obi-Wan's level. But Anakin, who was using his ark side, was far above Kenobi. He was able to easily kill Count Dooku (the same Count was equal to Windu). Even Yoda was unable to do that (I mean, he was able to beat Count, but not as easily as Anakin).