Writer's Intent: Hulk vs Doomsday

Originally posted by Naija boy
In terms of general portrayals doomsday was seemingly a level above. But if we get into Pak hulk and the writer intent regarding that? Then doomsday would get absolutely annihilated. Pak wrote a hulk that was specifically meant to be exponentially more powerful than hulk ha ever been in the past....and then said that that version of hulk ( pre HOTM Worldbreaker) was holding back. Simplistic and downright retarded downplaying of that writer intent which focus on the fact that WBhulk destroyed a planet and then compare it to other cases of planetary destruction while ignoring the fact that the nature of the planetary destruction ( as well as other aspects) is what makes the feat exponentially more impressive...shows the level of willful ignorance and recalcitrance some people are willing to demonstrate in order to still preserve their idea of what hulk "should be".

Fact is I doubt any writer would have any doomsday come in and out brawl WBH as Pak intended him....just not even close.

👆

Originally posted by carver9
Also, for someone that can take out Imperiex, why did Superman almost die from one attack from Imperiex Prime? Darkseid had to save him.

lol at the reading comprehension fail, it says right there in plain english, Superman snapped out of his non mental block state.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You're still comparing apples to oranges.

Ummm. Marvel and DC are like apples and oranges

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
There's a reason why Surfer's versatility means a lot more against Hulk then Thor despite how Thor matches up with Hulk.

Don't know if you ever notice, but Surfer does uses his powers instead rather than trying to out-brawl Hulk like Thor does. While they might be more versatile, Surfer does uses his powers and versatility and has a better record vs Hulk than Thor who does not uses his versatility and tries to out brawl the hulk. Now Superman has the Super speed advantage on top of the Superman packed punches and the heat vision, Super speed in low balled ratio of 2 to 1 is the least advantage Superman has over the Hulk and Thor does not has that advantage over the Hulk, I also mention something about the combined efforts in a blast of the JLA "pouring everything" which Doomsday just with stood with one hand tied behind back. IIRC hulk does not has something close to that.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How do you not understand that Peter David saying Superman can beat Hulk by using flight etc. to set some sort of trap up for Hulk is not applicable to Doomsday?

😆 How can you not understand that Peter David is NOT saying that Superman will lay out a trap, he said Hulk could win if he sets a trap, please read the interview again.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
There is a huge difference between Superman winning because of heat vision and flight and Doomsday winning by out punching Hulk.

I will suggest for you to re-read the interview, Peter David is not saying that Superman will win because of "heat vision and flight" but because of his COMBINATION of "strength, invulnerability, super speed and heat vision" as for Doomsday, he has the strength, speed, poison, adaptability, invulnerability and Healing factor

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not to mention Hulk's stature has grown in the last two decades more then any other character's I can think of.

Lol no, I think this is why you champion the Hulk more than Thor now a days, since you dog does not bite hard enough, you have to find a better dog. Hulks has decent showings and like most popular characters grows in power over time.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So Hulk did as well as he did because Marvel couldn't stand to have him embarrassed or something? Lol. Ironically, that's an argument many would use for Superman and I'd guess how you'd feel about using interviews in favor of what happens in crossovers in his situation.

Yes, I believe so, Superman has to be toned down when facing the Hulk, otherwise, it will be boring. and lol at your attempt of trying to dismiss the interview, I am using the interview, because if you had not read the OP is called "W-r-i-t-e-r-'s I-n-t-e-n-t"

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman used his flight and heat vision to his advantage in that fight,

Barely

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
it wasn't a simple slug fest.

Mostly,yes

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Also, you do realize that this is the post DC vs. Marvel interview they did in Wizard that you're referencing? The fact that Hulk was in the Professor era (And they didn't even bring up angrier/stronger factor) makes the use of this even more pointless.

The fact that Superman defeated the Hulk in a "mostly" slug fest speaks volumes, not to mention that this is not a regular but a hulk who is stronger at base than other incarnations of hulk and what it baffles me is that probably you do not even know that Peter David gave this interview when he had almost explored all the Hulk personas he came up with and all the Hulk personas that were already established.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
World Breaker's feat wasn't impressive JUST because his battle resulted in planetary destruction. The fact that you do not understand this like two years later is outright troubling as I'm sure this has been explained to you like a dozen times.

No,I have read it and still I don't see what's the fuzz about as I have read Hulk comics previous Pak Era, I know Hulk strength is POTENTIALLY limitless, so He did what he has done since always. with the difference that now hulk holds back and the introduction of green scar persona, pak added to the Hulk mitos, but no where near of what Peter David did with the Hulk.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hulk destroying a planet as World Breaker and Darkseid doing so doesn't in itself mean that Darkseid and World Breaker Hulk are automatically physical equals or peers (Not to mention Darkseid probably used energy powers IIRC).

What the heck is this, I mentioned How PAK portrays a power level to bust a planet, PAK, not me, and the depiction of the art point at a physical fight with a punch about to being thrown BEFORE the planet explodes.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
These conclusions make absolutely no sense in light of the evidence we have. As far as Pak is concerned World War Hulk is easily as strong as elite top tiers and can climb far higher before even reaching World Breaker.

lol no, did Carver hacked this account?

😂 @ Rage. Simply baffling.

Originally posted by carver9
You are the only one that is saying physical.

Depicted physically, let me ask you this Carver, did Darkseid seem to use a physical attack or an energy attack in this scan?

Now in this one, does he seems to be ready to use a physical attack or an energy attack?

Originally posted by carver9
Lol..ok, stick to your 90s scan while I hold on to a more current source.

I am sticking with what David rather than you, has to say on the matter, unless you think Greg Pak is a more influential writer then Peter David on the Hulk's matter?

Originally posted by carver9
Lol again, Pak said WWH would kill Superman...WBH wasn't even introduced yet when Pak said this. WBH would melt Superman with a punch.

LOL, No Carver, OK I tell you what I accept that if you accept what Joe Casey said about Superman, that not even Galactus will stop him, does that sounds like a fair trade of idiocy to you?

Originally posted by carver9
With that said, all of your attempts failed. You really don't have an argument here. Just give it up buddy.

Like your attempt to show the equivalent of Hulk defeating a going all out JLA with one hand tied behind his back?

NOW Back on Topic and a question to the OP

Will this writer's intent is only involving certain writers or any writer who has worked with the Hulk and Doomsday?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I thought we were talking about a straight fight, here?

that wasn't my understanding of the thread....i think it's more an opinion thread on what each character is intended to be. again, i'm not sure anyone would unanimously agree that hulk--even wbh--was intended to be far more powerful than marvel's biggest guns, namely thor or ss. in fact i've seen the threads. it is clear that dd was intended to be far beyond superman, dc's greatest. but he was also far beyond even darkseid, one of dc's iconic villains. the intimation of power is crystal clear. with wbh we had umar bascially cracking jokes while hulk was going off. while his feat was greater than anything dd did, i think the intentions of the characters are blatantly different. while umar was cracking jokes, darkseid himself was terrified of dd and in fact feared for all of apokalips. superman was likewise terrified. again, a clear difference in terms of portrayal and seeming intent. also, the comparison in characters involved matters imo--had we seen wbh destroy thor and ss without effort, it WOULD carry a lot more weight than bi-beast and the others. the fodder effect can't be ignored in the overall picture. while the feat is awesome, the feats are not what are necessarily be compared here. it is the intention of each, what each is supposed to represent. imo, dd was intended to be clearly beyond even dc's most powerful heroes and villains. hulk? not so sure we can say that, at least not as clearly. again, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
while i'd agree with your initial statement, i'd disagree with the above statement 100%. to suggest otherwise would be akin to dd running a train on the avengers only to have hulk come in and save the day by doing what all of them combined--and in the case of hp dd, that included superman, waverider and darkseid--couldn't do. marvel would never let a guy wreck all the avengers, including thor and perhaps even surfer to keep the hp/dd analogy in check--only to have him lose single-handedly to the hulk, wbh or not. and that is the reason why i believe that based on the intent of the characters, dd would take this every time.

👆

Originally posted by leonidas
that wasn't my understanding of the thread....i think it's more an opinion thread on what each character is intended to be. again, i'm not sure anyone would unanimously agree that hulk--even wbh--was intended to be far more powerful than marvel's biggest guns, namely thor or ss. in fact i've seen the threads. it is clear that dd was intended to be far beyond superman, dc's greatest. but he was also far beyond even darkseid, one of dc's iconic villains. the intimation of power is crystal clear. with wbh we had umar bascially cracking jokes while hulk was going off. while his feat was greater than anything dd did, i think the intentions of the characters are blatantly different. while umar was cracking jokes, darkseid himself was terrified of dd and in fact feared for all of apokalips. superman was likewise terrified. again, a clear difference in terms of portrayal and seeming intent. also, the comparison in characters involved matters imo--had we seen wbh destroy thor and ss without effort, it WOULD carry a lot more weight than bi-beast and the others. the fodder effect can't be ignored in the overall picture. while the feat is awesome, the feats are not what are necessarily be compared here. it is the intention of each, what each is supposed to represent. imo, dd was intended to be clearly beyond even dc's most powerful heroes and villains. hulk? not so sure we can say that, at least not as clearly. again, imo.

👆

@Rao...

Got a question buddy. Since versatility plays a huge role in your argument, would you give Surfer a 10/10 against Superman?

Originally posted by carver9
@Rao...

Got a question buddy. Since versatility plays a huge role in your argument, would you give Surfer a 10/10 against Superman?

I think Surfer puts a better fight than the Hulk, for sure, buddy 😉

Originally posted by leonidas
that wasn't my understanding of the thread....i think it's more an opinion thread on what each character is intended to be. again, i'm not sure anyone would unanimously agree that hulk--even wbh--was intended to be far more powerful than marvel's biggest guns, namely thor or ss. in fact i've seen the threads. it is clear that dd was intended to be far beyond superman, dc's greatest. but he was also far beyond even darkseid, one of dc's iconic villains. the intimation of power is crystal clear. with wbh we had umar bascially cracking jokes while hulk was going off. while his feat was greater than anything dd did, i think the intentions of the characters are blatantly different. while umar was cracking jokes, darkseid himself was terrified of dd and in fact feared for all of apokalips. superman was likewise terrified. again, a clear difference in terms of portrayal and seeming intent. also, the comparison in characters involved matters imo--had we seen wbh destroy thor and ss without effort, it WOULD carry a lot more weight than bi-beast and the others. the fodder effect can't be ignored in the overall picture. while the feat is awesome, the feats are not what are necessarily be compared here. it is the intention of each, what each is supposed to represent. imo, dd was intended to be clearly beyond even dc's most powerful heroes and villains. hulk? not so sure we can say that, at least not as clearly. again, imo.

Ah. That's opening a whole can of worms, imo.

What I will say is that I always viewed Hulk and Superman as occupying largely the same role on their team when it comes to fight. They don't arrive first, or if they do, they're taken out quickly while the rest of the team does battle. When they get their second wind, or finally arrive, the team has largely been beaten down, and they're the ones that turn the tide, whether it be for a short time or a long time.

Doomsday, typically, is written with the intent that he beats all comers. He's supposed to be above any team or one person for the most part, but he's not unbeatable; beating him should come at a cost, as we saw in DOS. He's the boogeyman.

The big problem, is that once you start taking power levels in to account, things get derailed quite quickly, and writer intent can go out the window.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I think Surfer puts a better fight than the Hulk, for sure, buddy 😉

Surfer has everyone of Superman powers plus a thousand more. If this is a versatility argument, using your style of debate, Surfer should pull a 10/10, correct. This also include Lanterns. They are able to create Kryptonite...would you give them a 10/10 against Superman.

As for your comment about Superman vs Imperiex...does Superman mental block have anything to do with his durability (decrease or increase it). If not, why would a writer say Superman would beat Imperiex if Imperiex Prime could kill Superman with one attack?

I don't think Surfer could beat Superman 10/10...it's debatable if he could pull a majority...I'm just pointing out how crazy your argument is.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer has everyone of Superman powers plus a thousand more. If this is a versatility argument, using your style of debate, Surfer should pull a 10/10, correct. Thus also include Lanterns. They are able to create Kryptonite...would you give them a 10/10 against Superman.

As for your comment about Superman vs Imperiex...does Superman mental block have anything to do with his durability (decrease or increase it). If not, why would a writer say Superman would beat Imperiex if Imperiex Prime could kill Superman with one attack?

All this will be answered if you read Superman comics or Surfer comics.

As for what Casey said on the interview, it is written on plain English, as much as you hate to read, I will suggest you do it, so you can understand it, instead of trying to bait me with questions and avoiding the topic at hand

as for "my argument" brainiac the op says writers intent "my argument" is Peter David's (a writer) argument "a COMBINATION of strength, invulnerability, super speed and heat vision" he says that it is too much and enough to defeat the Hulk

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
All this will be answered if you read Superman comics or Surfer comics.

As for what Casey said on the interview, it is written on plain English, as much as you hate to read, I will suggest you do it, so you can understand it, instead of trying to bait me with questions and avoiding the topic at hand

I read Superman comics...probably read more than you. That still doesn't answer my question.

I'm not baiting you. Im asking you a simple question. If a writer said Gladiator could kill Superman with ease but during the time they fought, Superman hits him one time and kill Gladiator, wouldn't that contradict what was stated about Gladiator?

^Sigh!

Did the writer on the interview stated that Superman zoned out of his no mental block state, because of Doomsday death yes or no?

let me help you out buddy

"Who can beat Superman when he goes into that unconscious ‘Probe-busting mode’ as he did in ADVENTURES 594?"

And then I threw out the names, and assumed he’d think I was just being silly:

RC: Juggernaut? Doomsday? Galactus? No one short of Imperiex himself?

* * * * *

And then he laid down the law, simple as that.

* * * * *

JOE CASEY: At that point, Superman is unbeatable. Had he not snapped out of it when Doomsday got fried, he might’ve been able to stop Imperiex right then and there.

I highlighted the text, so you don't miss it this time.

So Superman mental block does have something to do with his durability? Is this what you are saying? If you say yes, I have another question for you.

Originally posted by carver9
So Superman mental block does have something to do with his durability? Is this what you are saying? If you say yes, I have another question for you.

LOL

That is what APPARENTLY Joe Casey is saying, but shoot the question

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
LOL

That is what Joe Casey is saying, but shoot the question

But his showing against Imperiex states otherwise.

My question is...do you have a scan proving Superman durability is dependent on his mindset? Never knew his powers worked like Gladiators of Sentry.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Ah. That's opening a whole can of worms, imo.

What I will say is that I always viewed Hulk and Superman as occupying largely the same role on their team when it comes to fight. They don't arrive first, or if they do, they're taken out quickly while the rest of the team does battle. When they get their second wind, or finally arrive, the team has largely been beaten down, and they're the ones that turn the tide, whether it be for a short time or a long time.

Doomsday, typically, is written with the intent that he beats all comers. He's supposed to be above any team or one person for the most part, but he's not unbeatable; beating him should come at a cost, as we saw in DOS. He's the boogeyman.

i agree with this almost completely, especially the underlined part. 👆

The big problem, is that once you start taking power levels in to account, things get derailed quite quickly, and writer intent can go out the window.

no doubt. which is why i think the discussion of feats in this thread is actually a bit counter-productive. it muddles the spirit of this thread and turns it into high-end vs high-end. i don't believe that was the intent of this thread. anywho, i think we're on the same page. welcome to the side of right. 😂

Superman's powers (strength, durability, speed) can all be affected by how much solar energy he's absorbing. The more he absorbs, the stronger, more durable, and faster he gets.

Why are people even asking this? I thought people read the comics?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman's powers (strength, durability, speed) can all be affected by how much solar energy he's absorbing. The more he absorbs, the stronger, more durable, and faster he gets.

Why are people even asking this? I thought people read the comics?

I agree with this 100%. That's not my question though. I'm asking Rao if Superman durability is dependent on his mindset...not solar absorption. Help me out here since Rao doesn't want to answer it.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this 100%. That's not my question though. I'm asking Rao if Superman durability is dependent on his mindset...not solar absorption. Help me out here since Rao doesn't want to answer it.

His solar absorption is tied in to his mindset, though. I thought you knew this?