Originally posted by CPT Space BombI agree Kylo is more interesting than Vader to me but I'm sure many Star Wars fans will disagree. I never thought Vader was awesome though.
I said there may be one or two. But I would argue that Kylo in one movie has shown more nuance than Vader did in one movie. Vader was more "Evil for the sake of Evil" than Kylo dude. If you want to lambaste Kylo at least get your facts straight.Also, Vader had 6 movies for us to get to know him. Kylo has had one.
Originally posted by queeq
You can. Check out "Hero" or "House of the Flying Daggers" for instance, there can be emotion and skill.What the PT lacked was emotion. And the Anakin/OB1 fight, well, for one, these guys never got along so I never found it very different from what they had been doing for two movies, except now with lightsabers and a completely overacted 'I hate you' attitude.
But look at it: swinging on ropes over a lava stream. Jumping like Super Mario Bros from tower to flying droids they surf on, weird senseless twirling, Force pushing each others hands... this is truly the most overblown and ridiculous fight ever.
Compare that to the fight in ROTJ. I'd watch that any time. Also because the fight has a narrative structure and flow, there's development, change... emotionally and in the fighting itself too. There's a lot at stake in that fight, both characters are emotionally invested and whoever wins, the outcome is unclear.In the Anakin/OB1 fight it's just two people doing weird stuff. All the time, it's long but it's the same thing all the time. Anakin hates oB1 and wants to kill him. There's more drama, tension and development in the
Spoiler:than in this entire fight.
Han Solo - Kylo Ren confrontation in TFASorry, fanboys, I know you like all beads and mirrors Lucas made you shine before your eyes, but it's all very lousy storytelling.
The fact that you think the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel "lacked emotion" only proves how subjective all this shit is.
And you're crazy, son.
Originally posted by Quincy
Wait are you worried we don't know yet what's caused him to head towards the dark side? Or worried that what we've seen is all we'll get?
Worried that they're going to give us a terrible backstory that makes Han, Leia, and Luke look incompetent...which they already do.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
How does Ren not being redeemed spit in the face of Luke saving Vader?
Because Luke did something no Jedi, and especially no Sith, had done in these movies(except Obi-Wan kind of): he showed mercy to his enemy in the hopes that the good in him would be strong enough to bring him back to the light. It's the most poignant example of good triumphing over evil in the series. A Jedi killing a Sith is easy. A Sith turning towards the light seems flat out unthinkable in these flicks(whereas we know from Dooku that a Jedi falling to the Darkside is much, much easier).
I could see the argument that Ren not going back to the light would provide a good companion piece to Vader. Sometimes the villain will not see the errors of his ways and will continue to be evil out of sheer pigheadedness. But at that point good is no longer triumphing. It is at best breaking even and at worst Vader was a singular special case.
I'm not saying Ren is a 100% objective character. I expect a lot of people will love him. I'm saying he does absolutely nothing for me as a character. 👆
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
I said there may be one or two. But I would argue that Kylo in one movie has shown more nuance than Vader did in one movie. Vader was more "Evil for the sake of Evil" than Kylo dude. If you want to lambaste Kylo at least get your facts straight.Also, Vader had 6 movies for us to get to know him. Kylo has had one.
Nuance means subtle. There is nothing subtle about Kylo Ben.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
I said there may be one or two. But I would argue that Kylo in one movie has shown more nuance than Vader did in one movie. Vader was more "Evil for the sake of Evil" than Kylo dude. If you want to lambaste Kylo at least get your facts straight.
Spoiler:so he can be even more on the Dark Side.
kills Han
Maybe we'll get more information in a sequel but for right now Ren seems like a lesser Vader with no really validity behind any of his actions.
Originally posted by The_TempestI agree saying that scene lacked emotion is off. Someone can not like the Lightsaber duel but the scene was clearly directed with the intention of displaying inter emotion between these characters with all their years of friendship coming to an end.
The fact that you think the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel "lacked emotion" only proves how subjective all this shit is.And you're crazy, son.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakkaDid we watch the same movie? Kylo's initial reasons are a mystery to us. What did Snoke do to him? How did he seduce him? BUT, my point is, the depth of acting range displayed by Adam Driver made Kylo instantly more interesting to me. As someone else said, Kylo is the Anakin we should have gotten in the prequels. He's well acted AND he has his own personality. SURE, he's a Vader fanboy, but that doesn't make him less interesting. You people would rather watch a 1 dimensional (until ROTJ) villain like Vader or the Emperor than someone that has mental issues.....I don't even begin to understand.
I disagree with this especially taking AotC and RotS into account. Anakin, as flawed as it may be, actually has reasoning behind his decision to join the Dark Side. So far all Kylo Ren has demonstrated is that he up and decided to join Snoke/chase Vader's legacy because "reasons", killed Luke's padawan because "more reasons", andSpoiler:so he can be even more on the Dark Side.
kills HanMaybe we'll get more information in a sequel but for right now Ren seems like a lesser Vader with no really validity behind any of his actions.
And I LOVE Darth Vader and think he's a "Better" villain. But let's not pretend that Kylo isn't nuanced or interesting because that's complete lunacy.
Originally posted by Robtard
Why the negative outlook so early in?And granted, I share the sentiment that a lot of people had, much of this is what we've seen already, plots, characters, scenes etc. But it's still good.
It was certainly executed well. And I Loved the Jakku escape, The Millenium Falcon action, BB8 and the final scene and opening crawl.
But it's honestly the first SW movie I've seen lacking in Originality and Imagination. And that's where the lack of Lucas is felt IMO.
But I do have high hopes for the Sequels based on that final scene.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Nuance means subtle. There is nothing subtle about Kylo Ben.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact that you think the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel "lacked emotion" only proves how subjective all this shit is.And you're crazy, son.
I said the PT lacked emotion.
The Anakin/OB1 fight had emotion. One: anger. And only that and that all the time. The point I was making is that it's long and there is no development at all in that fight. All there is, is over-the-top angry acting by Hayden and a lot of weird jumping and twirling. It's hardly interesting.
It's cool if you think Driver's a better actor than Hayden. But we were given very explicit and logical reasons for Anakin's fall and we watched it happen.
Kylo simply does what Snoke tells him to for unestablished reasons and his current motivation so far is that he
Spoiler:for no reason at all. 👍
wants to be a mass murdering war criminal
Originally posted by The_TempestNo. You had 6 freaking movies to watch Darth Vader turn. In the OT, all he was was a 1 dimensional villain UNTIL ROTJ....2 movies later. Your logic is not even remotely logical.
It's cool if you think Driver's a better actor than Hayden. But we were given very explicit and logical reasons for Anakin's fall and we watched it happen.Kylo simply does what Snoke tells him to for unestablished reasons and his current motivation so far is that he
Spoiler:for no reason at all. 👍
wants to be a mass murdering war criminal
I'm saying, in ONE MOVIE (all that Kylo has had) he's shown more to us than being one sided; he's much more interesting to me than almost any other villain in SW because of this. You people are funny. I love some of the opinions here.
"Waa waaa waa, Kylo isn't a good villain because he's a Vader fanboy; and he has emotional issues. I want someone that's pure evil all the time and doesn't lose to girls"
I dunno if Driver is better, but I do know Driver got better material to work with. And probably a better director as well.
And you're being a bit rash. We didn't know much about Vader in ANH either. But... here we at least know SOMETHING happened why he became that way. In case of Vader we only started wondering that after ESB.
Originally posted by queeq
I said the PT lacked emotion.The Anakin/OB1 fight had emotion. One: anger. And only that and that all the time. The point I was making is that it's long and there is no development at all in that fight. All there is, is over-the-top angry acting by Hayden and a lot of weird jumping and twirling. It's hardly interesting.
You're shortchanging it pretty obviously. What was Obi-Wan feeling? And why is polished choreography less interesting than two people bashing sticks together like two particularly aggressive epileptics?
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Did we watch the same movie? Kylo's initial reasons are a mystery to us. What did Snoke do to him? How did he seduce him? BUT, my point is, the depth of acting range displayed by Adam Driver made Kylo instantly more interesting to me. As someone else said, Kylo is the Anakin we should have gotten in the prequels. He's well acted AND he has his own personality. SURE, he's a Vader fanboy, but that doesn't make him less interesting. You people would rather watch a 1 dimensional (until ROTJ) villain like Vader or the Emperor than someone that has mental issues.....I don't even begin to understand.And I LOVE Darth Vader and think he's a "Better" villain. But let's not pretend that Kylo isn't nuanced or interesting because that's complete lunacy.
Like I said that may all be introduced in the sequel(s) but for right now there's not a whole lot to go off of and what little we do know about Kylo Ren doesn't make a case that he's really that great of a characters. Also I'd argue that his mental issues, while interesting, aren't enough to sell me on his character as not only does he have any apparent cause for his actions but
Spoiler:
he was completely cognizant when he killed Han
Kylo is an interesting character just not a very good one atm.
Originally posted by Quincy
naw
"I KNOW WHAT I HAVE TO DO BUT I DON'T KNOW IF I'M STRONG ENOUGH!" T.T
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nuanced
Um, you need to do more research....
To wear the mask or not wear the mask? That is the question. I wonder what that mean-OH I GET IT IT IS SYMBOLIC OF THE CHOICE TO BE GOOD OR EVIL!
Look Vader as a character had no face. He had no opportunity to express his character through his eyes or mouth, something vital for our concept of body language. It was almost all conveyed through Jones's voice and clever direction/staging of scenes. The fact that you yourself call Vader the better villain is proof of the nuance you're looking for.
Originally posted by QuincyBest not to even try to understand man. They want a one dimensional super baddie instead of an complex character like Kylo.
I can get if you don't like Ren but saying he has no motivations is silly, considering we haven't seen the rest of the trilogy yet.Unless your complaint is that you don't know his motivations yet?
Originally posted by AuraAngelDude, you don't even know what nuance means or how to use it in sentence.. I gave up trying to reason with you because you're illogical. Frankly, your misguided opinions just aren't worth my time.
"I KNOW WHAT I HAVE TO DO BUT I DON'T KNOW IF I'M STRONG ENOUGH!" T.TTo wear the mask or not wear the mask? That is the question. I wonder what that mean-OH I GET IT IT IS SYMBOLIC OF THE CHOICE TO BE GOOD OR EVIL!
Look Vader as a character had no face. He had no opportunity to express his character through his eyes or mouth, something vital for our concept of body language. It was almost all conveyed through Jones's voice and clever direction/staging of scenes. The fact that you yourself call Vader the better villain is proof of the nuance you're looking for.