Originally posted by Quincy
I can get if you don't like Ren but saying he has no motivations is silly, considering we haven't seen the rest of the trilogy yet.Unless your complaint is that you don't know his motivations yet?
He doesn't have any motivation though. Either that or the movie did a poor job at introducing one or making Kylo Ren a strong enough character to compensate for not establishing a motive: something I think wasn't present.
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Best not to even try to understand man. They want a one dimensional super baddie instead of an complex character like Kylo.
That's why I'm arguing Kylo against Darth Maul, Grievous, and Count Dooku(who does have some nuance if only because Christopher Lee is who he is...still not a lot though). 🙂
Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Dude, you don't even know what nuance means or how to use it in sentence.. I gave up trying to reason with you because you're illogical. Frankly, your misguided opinions just aren't worth my time.
I'm hurt. Truly.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're shortchanging it pretty obviously. What was Obi-Wan feeling? And why is polished choreography less interesting than two people bashing sticks together like two particularly aggressive epileptics?
OB1 was probably feeling nothing, as all these Jedi in the PT are as lethargic as they could be. The point is: he can HAVE feelings, but if we don't SEE them, they're just not there in a movie. Yes, at the end he starts blabbering that Anakin was his brother (I though more like a son, because Anakin was a kid when he started training him, but okay...). And then he left him to croak, alive, limbless and burnt. How merciful... how much he loves Anakin...
Another example how actions and emotion do not correlate. They hardly ever do in the PT. And they don't in this fight. It would at least have been nice if Anakin tried a peaceful way out of this, trying to control his anger, just for his mentor, to whom he professed (in words, that's all we get in these movies) that he appreciated OB1's teachings.
So I have nothing agains polished choreography. I said that before. I mentioned movies like 'Hero', 'House of the Flying Daggers', or take 'Crouching Tiger... ', \Curse of the Golden Flower', whatever. But the characters work in the movies, there's something at stake, the characters are invested. Same in TFA...
In the PT all it is, is polished choreography. No heart, no soul. And there fore it comes closer to pointless hammering away than anything else. Except in ROTS it's on ropes, on miniature droids, of small floating panels, in the air etc etc... Everything Lucas hated when he made the OT: the effects are not in service of the story.
Let's compare:
A NEW HOPE: Vader does literally nothing deep emotionally whatsoever. He force chokes someone, really chokes someone else. He breathes through his mask menacingly. He "kills" Obi-Wan, and tries to kill Luke (and fails). Hmmmm, SO INTERESTING. Now, granted, over the next 5 movies we get alot more info about Vader and he becomes a better character.
THE FORCE AWAKENS: We all know about Kylo's tantrums, his over-confidence, and yet the same time his fear of turning back to the light side of the force. He displayed more depth of character than Vader did in THEIR FIRST MOVIES. That's fact, it's not even questionable. That's my point.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
If it is that easy and Ren just wants power for powers sake then he is not sympathetic in the slightest, leading to the two endings.It also means he's not complex. He's just an evil git who wants power for....reasons.
Not it doesn't. Just because he doesn't have a complex motivation doesn't mean the character isn't complex. There is far more to characters than just motivations.
It is pretty apparent Kylo taking off the mask clearly showed emotions unlike with Vader who just had a voice up until the point he died. Who everyone likes more doesn't matter in the slightest. Subjective but still fun to disagree over. Personally, I'm in the Kylo camp but old schoolers clearly have a thing for Vader.
I'm shocked that the movie about Luke does not spend a solid 30 minutes characterizing Vader. Look how shocked I am.
Originally posted by ares834
Not it doesn't. Just because he doesn't have a complex motivation doesn't mean the character isn't complex. There is far more to characters than just motivations.
Certainly. But if you're willing to just up and stab dear old dad to death, it helps to have a good motivation.
But like I said, enjoy Ben if you want. I'm not saying anyone is wrong for liking him, just that he fell utterly flat to me as both an intimidating villain and a subtle character.
Space Bomb is missing the point: I don't love Vader because of the shit I saw in ROTJ or the prequels. No one is saying that that makes him a better villain than anyone else. The best villain in Star Wars as far as I'm concerned is hands down the Emperor: and he doesn't have a whit of redemption or emotional difficulty in him. I don't subscribe to the notion that a good villain has to be an emotionally unstable emo. They can be ultra ambitious sociopaths and serve the story just as well. 👍
Originally posted by Quincy
I can get if you don't like Ren but saying he has no motivations is silly, considering we haven't seen the rest of the trilogy yet.Unless your complaint is that you don't know his motivations yet?
Let's assume that's true: then it also means that people can't claim that Kylo's motivations are deep or nuanced or complex. Because as it stands, dude is
Spoiler:
throwing an epic b1tchfit because he's tempted to not be a mass murdering war criminal.
Can't believe Ren is being compared to Vader. Even if we just look at ANH, Vader was Epic because he was relentlessly Evil, completely unsympathetic and shrouded in Mystery.
Whilst also showing his complete devotion to his dark religion. Every line said so much about him whilst also hinting more about his back story, but keeps it intriguing and mysterious.
Even Comparing that to Kylo and hissy fits is beyond me.
Originally posted by The_TempestThat is why this is pointless to argue. Being complex doesn't make someone a better villain. At the end of the day it's what you prefer. For me it's the way the actor delivers the role, chemistry between the antagonist and the protagonist, the dialogue, the sheer screen presence and to a lesser degree the aesthetic value.
Space Bomb is missing the point: I don't love Vader because of the shit I saw in ROTJ or the prequels. No one is saying that that makes him a better villain than anyone else. The best villain in Star Wars as far as I'm concerned is hands down the Emperor: and he doesn't have a whit of redemption or emotional difficulty in him. I don't subscribe to the notion that a good villain has to be an emotionally unstable emo. They can be ultra ambitious sociopaths and serve the story just as well. 👍Let's assume that's true: then it also means that people can't claim that Kylo's motivations are deep or nuanced or complex. Because as it stands, dude is
Spoiler:
throwing an epic b1tchfit because he's tempted to not be a mass murdering war criminal.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Can't believe Ren is being compared to Vader. Even if we just look at ANH, Vader was Epic because he was relentlessly Evil, completely unsympathetic and shrouded in Mystery.Whilst also showing his complete devotion to his dark religion. Every line said so much about him whilst also hinting more about his back story, but keeps it intriguing and mysterious.
Even Comparing that to Kylo and hissy fits is beyond me.
Vader is undoubtedly the "cooler" villain. Is he the better villain? Well that's a bit more of a discussion.