Originally posted by Esau CairnThat was fear of his rage and his powers. We see someone earlier in the film trembling in fear of his rage. Do you understand any of this ? Bruce had to hit you with facts in the other thread and you show your limited intellect again in another thread failing to grasp a simple scene.
When 2 StormTroopers did an abrupt turn & walk away...that wasn't fear of Kylo's rage....that was 2 grown ups not wanting to deal with someone acting like a childish brat.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
When 2 StormTroopers did an abrupt turn & walk away...that wasn't fear of Kylo's rage....that was 2 grown ups not wanting to deal with someone acting like a childish brat.
It's fear that an unstable super villain might cut them to pieces. We saw earlier that guy reporting to him had legitimate fear for Ren.
Originally posted by queeq
Well, then QGJ would be wrong. And I still don't get what Palpy's original plan was with the blockade and treaty. Unless... he foresaw EVERYTHING that happened in TPM or in the entire PT. But I find that very, very hard to believe (suspension of disbelieve... FAIL)... and it would make Palpy's death in ROTJ be categorized in the immortal segment of BBC's Horrible Histories: Stupid Deaths.So either way one tosses this coin, one side always ends up looking stupid.
It seems very simple and straightforward what Palps did with Naboo.
It was even explained by Palps, himself, when they were on Coruscant.
Here's what he did:
Orchestrated the Trade Federation blockade from behind the scenes. Using political Savoy and the existing Republic's laws, he figured out a way to make the blockade legal but still highly unethical.
The plan was to get the current Supreme Chancellor out of office (because the current Supreme Chancellor would not really be able to put a stop to the Trade Federation's very ugly actions because there was nothing illegal about it...which makes him look very ineffective to the Senate) so that he could get put in as Supreme Chancellor. The blockade of Naboo gave the savoy senator from Naboo a "Sympathy vote" from the senate when they went to elect a new Supreme Chancellor.
His plan worked. He became the new Supreme Chancellor. This was the first major milestone in a series of milestones where he becomes the Emperor. 🙂
Do you notice how nothing in my explanation has anything at all to do with The Force?
And here's the great part about my explanation: it was all in the movie and it was explained in the movie.
Fan made SW short film:
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2016/01/star-wars-fan-film-rebel-scum-takes-us-back-to-hoth/
'Rebel Scum"
Originally posted by dadudemon
It seems very simple and straightforward what Palps did with Naboo.It was even explained by Palps, himself, when they were on Coruscant.
Here's what he did:
Orchestrated the Trade Federation blockade from behind the scenes. Using political Savoy and the existing Republic's laws, he figured out a way to make the blockade legal but still highly unethical.
The plan was to get the current Supreme Chancellor out of office (because the current Supreme Chancellor would not really be able to put a stop to the Trade Federation's very ugly actions because there was nothing illegal about it...which makes him look very ineffective to the Senate) so that he could get put in as Supreme Chancellor. The blockade of Naboo gave the savoy senator from Naboo a "Sympathy vote" from the senate when they went to elect a new Supreme Chancellor.
His plan worked. He became the new Supreme Chancellor. This was the first major milestone in a series of milestones where he becomes the Emperor. 🙂
Do you notice how nothing in my explanation has anything at all to do with The Force?
And here's the great part about my explanation: it was all in the movie and it was explained in the movie.
The problem is why did he send Maul after Amidala? His plan seems to rely on the Queen getting to the Senate and calling for a Vote of no Confidence on the Chancellor. So why would he dispatch his most capable servant after her, especially since it also reveals the existence of the Sith to the Jedi? It doesn’t make sense. I guess it’s possible that wasn’t his plan at all and he just lucked out but IDK.
Now admittedly this is getting very nit-picky and isn’t something that will stick out on a first viewing (or a second or a third).
Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's what he did:Orchestrated the Trade Federation blockade from behind the scenes. Using political Savoy and the existing Republic's laws, he figured out a way to make the blockade legal but still highly unethical.
The plan was to get the current Supreme Chancellor out of office (because the current Supreme Chancellor would not really be able to put a stop to the Trade Federation's very ugly actions because there was nothing illegal about it...which makes him look very ineffective to the Senate) so that he could get put in as Supreme Chancellor. The blockade of Naboo gave the savoy senator from Naboo a "Sympathy vote" from the senate when they went to elect a new Supreme Chancellor.
I still don't get it.
A) How does making a legal but unethical blockade help his plan? Clearly the Senate doesn't care about ethics... only about 'proof', since they demand that so much. The Senate (and the Chancellor) don't care what the Jedi have to say, so clearly ethics are irrelevant.
No one seems to care at all for the blockade either. After all, it was Valorum PERSONALLY who sent Jedi to figure it out. When a report is made of an actual invasion by the TF, no one in the Senate seems to care either, unless a committee goes there to check it out. Even a Jedi's word is obviously not worth anything.
So I don't get how a blockade the entire Senate doesn't care about will help Palpy to become Chancellor.
B) Sidious insisted on having a treaty signed. Wat was in the treaty? Why does Sidious need it to be signed? Does that help him or does it cause trouble for the TF? What's in it that makes Padme not wanting to sign it? And how would that treaty get Palpy on the Chancellor seat.
C) To get rid of Valorum he needed Padme, but we see him as Sidious make sure she doesn't get off the planet. By ordering the Jedi to be killed (who are the ones thats save her, was that also Sidious's plan?). By having Padme processed. By having a blockade to make sure no one leaves the planet. And by sending Maul after Padme.
D) If originally Palps didn't need Padme (since he clearly wanted her out of the way), would he have sent out a motion himself as the only Naboo representative in the Senate (and why didn't he anyway)? And I think that if HE was the one to send out the motion, he would probably not have been the candidate for the Chancellor's seat. Because then it would have been clear for the entire Senate that he used the blockade of Naboo to his personal advantage. In very touchy political surroundings that wouldn't work well.
So, you explained it well. Kind of how the movie sort of makes it clear. But... it makes no sense!
Originally posted by queeq
I still don't get it.
Okay, I'll explain some of it by quoting myself back to you:
Originally posted by queeq
A) How does making a legal but unethical blockade help his plan?
Originally posted by dadudemon
The plan was to get the current Supreme Chancellor out of office so that he could get put in as Supreme Chancellor.
Originally posted by queeq
Clearly the Senate doesn't care about ethics... only about 'proof', since they demand that so much. The Senate (and the Chancellor) don't care what the Jedi have to say, so clearly ethics are irrelevant.
You're overlooking very important dialogue to make statements like this.
The Trade Federation denied some of the accusations of Queen Amidala. They literally said things to the senate like, "outrageous accusations" and "there's no proof."
Also, why did the Trade Federation do what it did?
Money. They wanted more money from Naboo to use their trade routes. Naboo refused. So the Trade Federation blockaded Naboo and galactic goods could not really be shipped too or from Naboo, choking off Naboo from the outside planets.
And the senate was debating the legalities of this blockade. Guess where I got this information from? The opening crawl of The Phantom Menace.
Originally posted by queeq
No one seems to care at all for the blockade either. After all, it was Valorum PERSONALLY who sent Jedi to figure it out. When a report is made of an actual invasion by the TF, no one in the Senate seems to care either, unless a committee goes there to check it out. Even a Jedi's word is obviously not worth anything.
Well, except for everyone caring. Which is the entire point of the film. They are arguing over it even before the movie's events take place...according to the opening crawl. Keep in mind that part of the problem of the Republic is it become extremely difficult to get anything done, was highly corrupt, and had groups of cooperating people who opposed other groups. This was one of the points in the film made at least 3 times from what I can remember (perhaps more). One of the people who made that point was Palpatine.
I should also note that the Chancellor "secretly dispatched 2 Jedi to Naboo to negotiate with the Viceroy. It wouldn't be a secret if everyone knew. And the Neimoidians would clearly not negotiate with Jedi "ambassadors." They were sent there to strong-arm the Trade Federation to back off. Palp pretended (this word "pretended" is very important to understand, later on, because he knew that the Viceroy wouldn't be able to kill the Jedi) that he wasn't having that so he ordered them to kill the Jedi. Poison gas. Was ineffective, though. 🙂
It seems like I'm just summarizing the movie back to you, at this point.
Originally posted by queeq
So I don't get how a blockade the entire Senate doesn't care about will help Palpy to become Chancellor.
I just explained it. Here it is again:
Originally posted by dadudemon
The plan was to get the current Supreme Chancellor out of office (because the current Supreme Chancellor would not really be able to put a stop to the Trade Federation's very ugly actions because there was nothing illegal about it...which makes him look very ineffective to the Senate) so that he could get put in as Supreme Chancellor. The blockade of Naboo gave the savoy senator from Naboo a "Sympathy vote" from the senate when they went to elect a new Supreme Chancellor.His plan worked. He became the new Supreme Chancellor. This was the first major milestone in a series of milestones where he becomes the Emperor. 🙂
I can explain this even more simply for you:
1. Palps wanted to rule the galaxy. So he creates a false political problem to show how ineffective and shitty the current Supreme Chancellor is (he wants that guy's job).
2. Palps plan works and he becomes the Supreme Chancellor.
Originally posted by queeq
B) Sidious insisted on having a treaty signed. Wat was in the treaty? Why does Sidious need it to be signed? Does that help him or does it cause trouble for the TF? What's in it that makes Padme not wanting to sign it? And how would that treaty get Palpy on the Chancellor seat.
So you want to know why people would need to sign a treaty during a military conflict? You also want to know why signing was important to ending a galactic trade dispute?
I don't know what you're really asking. Are you calling into question why we humans place importance on signing treaties with each other and why signatures mean anything since it is just symbols on a piece of paper? That's not something that really is the fault of George Lucas.
Expand on what you mean, here, because it seems more like you're attacking the idea of why humans sign documents that end military conflicts.
Also, the Trade Federation invading Naboo was supposedly illegal to the Republic's rules. Probably because both parties are members of the same Republic so you would naturally have rules about not killing the shit out of each other. Just a guess.
Originally posted by queeq
C) To get rid of Valorum he needed Padme, but we see him as Sidious make sure she doesn't get off the planet. By ordering the Jedi to be killed (who are the ones thats save her, was that also Sidious's plan?). By having Padme processed. By having a blockade to make sure no one leaves the planet. And by sending Maul after Padme.
By "he needed Padme", I assume you mean he needed her to physically be present in the Senate to give her speech?
There's an alternative to your perspective. Palps would be very familiar with Jedi's abilities. Poison gas wouldn't work. Droids probably wouldn't work, either. So by telling the Neimoidians to kill the Jedi, he was really planning for the Neimoidians to get scared so they'd be easier to manipulate to invade Naboo shortly after they escape. Which is exactly what Palps had them do: had them invade Naboo after the Jedi escape their execution.
If Padme makes a believable escape, it makes for a better sympathy vote (hardships to talk about). So what happens if the Jedi were killed? That probably meant that all of his plans would have fallen apart.
Also, I think your idea probably could have worked, too: Palps is a Naboo senator. He could have used Naboo's situation, with some pleads for help from the Queen, as a sympathy vote to get him elected. But he would have to be the one to say that the Supreme Chancellor gets removed with a "Vote of no Confidence." Carries less weight. Seems far more likely that Palps plan was exactly what happened.
Originally posted by queeq
D) If originally Palps didn't need Padme (since he clearly wanted her out of the way), would he have sent out a motion himself as the only Naboo representative in the Senate (and why didn't he anyway)? And I think that if HE was the one to send out the motion, he would probably not have been the candidate for the Chancellor's seat. Because then it would have been clear for the entire Senate that he used the blockade of Naboo to his personal advantage. In very touchy political surroundings that wouldn't work well.
He wasn't the one to send out the notion of a "Vote of no confidence" in the current Supreme Chancellor. It was Queen Amidala who pushed that motion to the Senate after they said they would send a committee to investigate the invasion claims of Amidala (because the Trade Federation denied invading). One of the famous lines from Amidala was uttered after the offering of an investigative committee: "I was not elected to watch my people suffer and die while you discuss this invasion in a committee!"
Originally posted by queeq
So, you explained it well. Kind of how the movie sort of makes it clear. But... it makes no sense!
I didn't really explain it. I just summarized the film, quoted characters, and referred to the opening crawl.