Jedi vs X-Men

The Canadian
This is the film versions. What "insane mental fortitude" did Yoda, Sidious, and Windu demonstrate besides being retarded?

The Canadian
Aside from the whole "veil of the dark side has fallen" (which means like f*ck all as far as the films tell us), what else did he do besides use incredibly obious ploys to manipulate what had to have been the most easily duped and functionally brain dead people in all of modern fiction?

If Rogue was given the mutant cure and was strapped to Magneto's Statue of Liberty chair, she would still somehow manage to convince all the Jedi to commit ritualistic suicide--they are that incapable of intelligent thought.

The Canadian
Good for being a powerful Force user. Aside from some telekinesis and sensing emotions, nothing any Force user has done in the films has been indicative of a strong will.

"The Force has a strong influence on the weak minded." Ben said in ANH. It sure does. Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, Anakin, all the Jedi have such weak minds and "wills" that one single Sith Lord was able to pull the most obvious wool over their eyes without so much as giving a shit. The Jedi are nearly brain dead in their retardation. Sidious is the only one in the films who is clearly shown to have even a remotely intact "will". Though considering his greatest mental opposition was an order of monks with the collective mental fortitude of a tangerine, it's not saying much for him.

And as Sidious (the only potential asset the Jedi could use) isn't here, and Xavier is. And Magneto is. And Havok is... the Jedi die. Painfully and with great expedience.

The Canadian
The mind rules both. The Jedi barely have minds that can process anything at all. As far as the movies show us, their brains plod them from room to room and swing their swords at other swords, and their minds barely function. They can feel the Force and move some objects, but nothing in the films show us anything resembling intelligence, willpower, logic, or strength. Sometimes we see an emotion or two, but that's not exactly going to stop Xavier.

I see you continue to eagerly slurp Red Letter Media's special flavor of Kool-Aid.

Spoiler:
Palpatine is 10x smarter than Heath Ledger's Joker. #trufax #comeatmebro

Originally posted by dadudemon
Every last point you make in this post has already been countered. If you want to see my rebuttals to you points, simply find the corresponding rebuttals in my posts. You are not smart enough nor good enough to deserve me quoting my posts at you. You need to level up, several times, before I will give you more attention. Get better on this thing called debate. Then get back to me. Perhaps you'll learn how to not concede major points and then whine when it's pointed out that you've conceded them? Perhaps you'll learn when you're wrong and directly admit that? There is nothing at all you can do about the following: Xavier freezes all the Jedi. The Jedi have no defense, at all, against Xavier's brand of telepathy. No, the force does not exist in the Marvel Universe. It is not in "all living things"*, as you falsely state especially in vs. threads where other characters come from different universes. I'm sure that made sense in your mind but it is hilariously dumb.

This is one of the smarter things you've stated. However, that's a malformed thought. Xavier's telepathy is NOT greater than The Force.

Lemme explain.

It's simply different.

What you're saying is 100kg is greater than blue. That's nonsensical. It's dumb as shit.

I hope that sinks in. Maybe you'll finally see the light. 🙂

LOL. Dude you are hilarious. Keep taking to yourself that you won the debate. I am sure you are starting to believe that.

Originally posted by Placidity
Why is freezing mutants any different from a normal humans, unless they had mental resistance?

Originally posted by Kotor3
LOL. Dude you are hilarious. Keep taking to yourself that you won the debate. I am sure you are starting to believe that.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Because mutants are.....wait for it.......evolved humans. To say a mutants mind is the same as a human is plain old fashioned foolery.

Xavier has never shown difficulty in affecting other mutant's minds except for 3:

Shaw, Jean, and Emma.

It's pretty obvious why Jean and Emma were difficult for him but Shaw's remains largely unexplained. Robtard thinks it is him being powered up and it some how offered low protection. Maybe the no-limits fallacy applies to Xavier? Meaning, the more powerful a mutant is, the harder it is for Xavier to control? That has never been established.

Also, mutants are the same as humans except for a primary mutation and a secondary mutation (in some instances). Their brains work just the same unless they have a primary or secondary mutation that works via the brain.

Additionally, Xavier, through amplification via Cerebro, could kill all mutants with just his mind. This means that without the amplication, Xavier could target just mutants and kill them with just his mind (but not on a global scale).

Additionally, the "targeting all mutants" and "targeting all humans" thing pretty much takes a shit on Kotor's perceived point about will-power being able to resist Xavier. Xavier can obviously kill all Jedi with just his mind by being in proximity to them, if CIS is turned off.

Agreed, the human Jedi have no chance.

An argument could be made that Xavier couldn't affect Yoda and Fisto since they're aliens.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Definitions for Willpower:
The ability to control yourself : strong determination that allows you to do something difficult.
The strength of will to carry out one's decisions, wishes, or plans.
1. the ability to control oneself and determine one's actions
2. firmness of will

Synonyms
continence, restraint, self-command, self-containment, self-control, self-discipline, self-government, self-mastery, self-possession, self-restraint, will

Definitions for serious-minded:
• Characterized by seriousness of intention, purpose, thought, etc.; earnest.
• Acting with or showing thought and good sense; "a sensible young man" [syn: thoughtful]

Being a Jedi has to do with the way you use the force does it not? As does being a Sith? To master the force as a Jedi and Sith does not take willpower? I totally disagree. Yes any force sensitive can use the force does not mean that can master it.

Yoda comments were for Luke so he would not turn to the darkside. Which as we know takes willpower since it is the easy path to power. Which Luke would need to defeat Vader. Willpower, something Luke use to resist the dark-side and not kill his father.

Yoda told Luke he did not believe (or have faith) which builds up ‘will’ which produces ‘Willpower’.

I'm not busting out my DVDs to find these scenes.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I see you continue to eagerly slurp Red Letter Media's special flavor of Kool-Aid.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Because mutants are.....wait for it.......evolved humans. To say a mutants mind is the same as a human is plain old fashioned foolery.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wait... it's been a while since I've watched the movies... where is it said that you require a strong mind and willpower to use the Force? I remember the "feelings" talk, but where did one Jedi say to another "To command the Force, you must have an iron will" or something to that affect? Also, since you skipped the EDIT in my last post, can you clarify where the Jedi are seen attacking the mind of another Jedi with the Force (and successfully repelling it)?

He's confusing the Green Lantern movie for the Star Wars movies. 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
He's confusing the Green Lantern movie for the Star Wars movies. 🙂

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wait... it's been a while since I've watched the movies... where is it said that you require a strong mind and willpower to use the Force? I remember the "feelings" talk, but where did one Jedi say to another "To command the Force, you must have an iron will" or something to that affect? Also, since you skipped the EDIT in my last post, can you clarify where the Jedi are seen attacking the mind of another Jedi with the Force (and successfully repelling it)?

I'm not busting out my DVDs to find these scenes.

It seems that you are separating force from Jedi. I'm not since the people in this thread are Jedi. My point is that it takes willpower to use the force as a Jedi. This is due to the principles and guidelines for living the life of a Jedi (which involves how you use the force) and avoiding the temptation of falling to the dark-side.

Here are some more quotes that I feel support that it is implied that when it comes to the using the force, light vs dark sides it involves willpower:
"Impressive... Most impressive. Obi-Wan has taught you well, you have controlled your fear. Now release your anger, only your hate can destroy me." - Vader to Luke

"Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed." - Ben to Luke

"You want this, don't you. The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your hanger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant." - Emperor to Luke

Originally posted by Kotor3
"Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed." - Ben to Luke

So you're saying that one of the most powerful Force users in Star Wars history had a weak will?

Interesting. Do you try to prove yourself wrong, all the time? Is this just not your week or is this a nasty habit of yours?

Originally posted by dadudemon
So you're saying that one of the most powerful Force users in Star Wars history had a weak will?

Interesting. Do you try to prove yourself wrong, all the time? Is this just not your week or is this a nasty habit of yours?

LOL. Try again.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Because mutants are.....wait for it.......evolved humans. To say a mutants mind is the same as a human is plain old fashioned foolery.

Don't play word games. It demonstrates your ignorance.

"Evolved" as in they have a specific gene that gives them a specific ability. If that ability has nothing to do with their mind, then for all intents and purposes, they have a normal human mind. And btw, the are still scientifically human, the same species.

Your logic is very weak.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Lucien I do not know if you were confused by my post or not but you are stating things in your post that I did not state.

It seems that you are separating force from Jedi. I'm not since the people in this thread are Jedi. My point is that it takes willpower to use the force as a Jedi. This is due to the principles and guidelines for living the life of a Jedi (which involves how you use the force) and avoiding the temptation of falling to the dark-side.

Here are some more quotes that I feel support that it is implied that when it comes to the using the force, light vs dark sides it involves willpower:
"Impressive... Most impressive. Obi-Wan has taught you well, you have controlled your fear. Now release your anger, only your hate can destroy me." - Vader to Luke

"Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed." - Ben to Luke

"You want this, don't you. The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your hanger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant." - Emperor to Luke

Again, nothing that any Jedi in the films has done has suggested they possess any more mental discipline, control, rigor or fortitude than say, a Navy SEAL. Old Ben has some patience. Luke has determination. The Jedi Council has... stupidity? Rashness? Blindness? A bad case of the "Whelp, Iunno?" They haven't the minds to resist Xavier.

Nor do they have the psychic powers to counter his. The closest we see is... five, I believe, mind tricks on NON-Force users. Two of them were unsuccessful. Their powers are enough to work on idiot Gungans, Jabba's adjutant, and incompetent Stormtroopers, but not enough to break through NON-Force user Jabba, or NON-Force user Watto (because his species can resist it or something). There are no examples of Jedi-on-Jedi (or Sith) psychic action, so those are all we have to go on. And you expect them to counter to Xavier with those feats?

And just to reiterate: these Jedi don't have strong minds. You can go on and on about Yoda's "standards" but given that during his Council tenure, he was one of the dumbest, most gullible, most oblivious, most downright foolish, and most lacking in critical thought processes Jedi around (and they all were to some extent), it's not saying much for his "criteria". People who do and say what Yoda and Co. did and said are not strong-minded. They are mindless. I guess he and Obi-Wan picked up a few brain cells in the intermittent years before Luke came along.

Originally posted by Kotor3
LOL. Try again.

But judging with the PT... then, yeah. He was weak as all shit.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I am separating them, because using the Force doesn't require you to be a Jedi. Yoda can set whatever standard you think he sets, but a more powerful, focused, logical, rational, smarter mind exists in a Sith Lord, so... whoop de doo for being a Jedi. The Jedi aren't going to be defending against Xavier simply for being Jedi, they need incredible psychic power.

Again, nothing that any Jedi in the films has done has suggested they possess any more mental discipline, control, rigor or fortitude than say, a Navy SEAL. Old Ben has some patience. Luke has determination. The Jedi Council has... stupidity? Rashness? Blindness? A bad case of the "Whelp, Iunno?" They haven't the minds to resist Xavier.

Nor do they have the psychic powers to counter his. The closest we see is... five, I believe, mind tricks on NON-Force users. Two of them were unsuccessful. Their powers are enough to work on idiot Gungans, Jabba's adjutant, and incompetent Stormtroopers, but not enough to break through NON-Force user Jabba, or NON-Force user Watto (because his species can resist it or something). There are no examples of Jedi-on-Jedi (or Sith) psychic action, so those are all we have to go on. And you expect them to counter to Xavier with those feats?

And just to reiterate: these Jedi don't have strong minds. You can go on and on about Yoda's "standards" but given that during his Council tenure, he was one of the dumbest, most gullible, most oblivious, most downright foolish, and most lacking in critical thought processes Jedi around (and they all were to some extent), it's not saying much for his "criteria". People who do and say what Yoda and Co. did and said are not strong-minded. They are mindless. I guess he and Obi-Wan picked up a few brain cells in the intermittent years before Luke came along.

EDIT: Yeah that line about dark v. light involving willpower... it doesn't hold up in a POWAH! sense. Going by the OT alone, Vader was seduced with who knows what, so can't judge him for lacking in willpower when we don't know the circumstances. Though apparently it gave him enough POWAH! to help slaughter the Jedi, who have stronger... wills, in your interpretation? So there's that bit of not-rightness.

But judging with the PT... then, yeah. He was weak as all shit.

So I just state my points one last time.

Yoda’s standards, bad writing, whatever you want to call it, the point is simple a Jedi must have willpower to:
• Only use the force for defense
• To not form attachments
• To not go be seduced to obtain power easier through the darkside
• Etc.

I already gave the definition of willpower and examples to back it up.
As for Anakin his willpower was weaken as he lost faith in the Jedi code. To sum it all up, to use the force does not require willpower however to use it in a certain way (control the way in which you use the force) does.

My response it in reference to you stating willpower is not required for using the force. Since these are Jedi who use the force in a certain specific way I am stating willpower is required.

As for whether Xavier can control them. I don’t know. This is Xavier from first class. My point was I do not see him doing so easily if at all since he had trouble controlling Shaw. Now you have force users, Jedi, two who are not even human.

X-Men wins. Xavier and Magneto sweep this.

Aside from Xavier's mindraping ability. Here is a reminder of Magneto's powers.

Lifting a stadium
watch?v=pAApe_5Rewg

Lifting submarine
watch?v=jkmeW9SfM_c#t=279

Crashing a plane
watch?v=JhpuUD1fWvs

X-Men rapes them.

* If this is First Class X-men we should use only feats from that movie or DofP feats are also cool?

Regardless, Magneto has by far the superior TK feats (shall we call them for convenience) to any of the Jedi.

On the other hand Jedi are faster than either of the X-men. Not as fast as Quicksilver, but they have the decisive edge.

On the other, other hand young Professor X perhaps can control their minds but as someone said Yoda and Fisto are alien so with them it might not work.

Jedi deal with mind tricks so they might be prepared much better for mental assault than mere humans.

Honestly, this is a much closer fight than most think.

Movieverse X-Men is at least transonic or so, speed might be about even

Not seeing how being an alien makes them resistant to mind****, honestly

Though Xavier and Magneto are kinda glass cannons

Still should be able to beat the Jedi though

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
X-Men wins. Xavier and Magneto sweep this.

Aside from Xavier's mindraping ability. Here is a reminder of Magneto's powers.

Lifting a stadium
watch?v=pAApe_5Rewg

Lifting submarine
watch?v=jkmeW9SfM_c#t=279

Crashing a plane
watch?v=JhpuUD1fWvs

X-Men rapes them.

Excellent post. 👆

The Canadian
And just to reiterate: these Jedi don't have strong minds. You can go on and on about Yoda's "standards" but given that during his Council tenure, he was one of the dumbest, most gullible, most oblivious, most downright foolish, and most lacking in critical thought processes Jedi around (and they all were to some extent), it's not saying much for his "criteria". People who do and say what Yoda and Co. did and said are not strong-minded. They are mindless. I guess he and Obi-Wan picked up a few brain cells in the intermittent years before Luke came along.

I'm curious as to where along the way you abandoned your penchant for critical thought and devolved into a shameless acolyte of the Red Letter Media heresy.

Don't worry, Canadian. I'll emancipate you from your dark master. Also, since you're a GoT fan, I'll troll you with the fact that Yoda is 10x smarter than Ned Stark:

Lucas > Martin. Yoda > Stark. Palpatine > Heath Ledger's Joker

Ned Stark: The only genuinely righteous character in Westeros. The only mistake he ever made was ****ing around and making Jon Snow. Even then, he tried to do right by collecting the boy and raising him with his own sons.

He was so righteous that he was out of place and it literally cost him his life in the end. If he had pretended to accept Cersei's sex bribe, he could have saved his life and perhaps spared us most of the events that occurred in the entire series.