I wouldn't say Kawhi Leonard "outplayed" or "overmatched" Lebron James, persay. If you look at the stats from that finals series, Lebron's were infinitely superior. The difference is that Kawhi made Lebron work for it enough so that the latter's help was completely and utterly insufficient, whereas the slick ball movement of the Spurs and their own star power of Duncan/Parker was too much.
I'd be inclined to disagree. Leonard was slightly more efficient, but Lebron's volume was vastly superior.
Kawhi Leonard's NBA Finals Stats:
17.8 points (61% FG)
6.4 rebounds
2.0 assists
1.6 steals
1.2 blocks
Lebron James NBA Finals Stats
28.2 points (57% FG)
7.8 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
0.4 blocks
Tim Duncan and Tony Parker utterly outshined D Wade and Bosh, though.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'd be inclined to disagree. Leonard was slightly more efficient, but Lebron's volume was vastly superior.Kawhi Leonard's NBA Finals Stats:
17.8 points (61% FG)
6.4 rebounds
2.0 assists
1.6 steals
1.2 blocksLebron James NBA Finals Stats
28.2 points (57% FG)
7.8 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
0.4 blocksTim Duncan and Tony Parker utterly outshined D Wade and Bosh, though.
You forgot plus/minus, usage rate, and minutes played.
Originally posted by psmith81992
You forgot plus/minus, usage rate, and minutes played.
True enough, though to be fair advanced stats and scaled stats (such as per 36 minutes stats) can be inconsistent and misleading. Kobe's advanced stats such as PER/Win Shares are relatively pathetic compared to the likes of Lebron or Jordan, but that doesn't necessarily tell the entire story or mean that Kobe is literally pathetic compared to them. Similarly, scaling up Kawhi's minutes/usage wouldn't necessarily put him on even ground with Lebron volume wise. And considering the circumstances (Kawhi had Duncan/Parker/Ginobili to lean on, all of whom had a higher usage rate than Kawhi, and the fact that Lebron had no help other than an ailing Dwayne Wade who had the second highest usage rate of anyone in the series, yet was only averaging 15 pts on 43% shooting,) I'd say Lebron outplayed Kawhi Leonard.
However to suggest per 36 metrics are "inconsistent and misleading" is entirely wrong given a proper sample size.
Kobe's advanced stats such as PER/Win Shares are relatively pathetic compared to the likes of Lebron or Jordan, but that doesn't necessarily tell the entire story or mean that Kobe is literally pathetic compared to them.
Similarly, scaling up Kawhi's minutes/usage wouldn't necessarily put him on even ground with Lebron volume wise. And considering the circumstances (Kawhi had Duncan/Parker/Ginobili to lean on, all of whom had a higher usage rate than Kawhi, and the fact that Lebron had no help other than an ailing Dwayne Wade who had the second highest usage rate of anyone in the series, yet was only averaging 15 pts on 43% shooting,) I'd say Lebron outplayed Kawhi Leonard.
Originally posted by FreshestSliceSidious vs Yoda was decided purely by Sidious grabbing on and Yoda for whatever reason not being flung hundreds of feet when he weighs as much as a cat, but still falling.
The battle was too much for Yoda given that the person he was waging it with was Sidious. Even if that weren't true, the fight put up by Yoda wasn't too much for Sidious, so this is besides the point.
It's not really the best comparison to use. For all intents and purposes the battle was even until Yoda fell and hit everything on the way down.
Not saying one is superior to the other but Yoda smashing into everything wasn't exactly Sidious' doing. Had the battle been waged not on a relatively tiny platform really high in the air would Yoda have run away? If Yoda was able to grab onto a handle instead of clawing on the side of a smooth incline would he have ran away? If Sidious missed that sick grab and been the one who fell and smashed into everything would that have shown Yoda was more powerful?
It's like saying Jango was too much for Obi Wan because he made him fall, and therefore was more powerful.
It was purely the battlefield that caused the "win". This shit happens a lot in Star Wars and people get hurt by outside forces.
I've no idea which one of you is right but psmith here is my point:
Lebron has already been acknowledged as the superior player so him being outplayed is a surprising outcome which doesn't prove that he is inferior to his rival because he had to chance to prove himself as the better player time and time again where in Yoda vs Sidious, that is not the case at all. Sidious and Yoda are clearly very close in power and skill but Sidious has better feats and even though he was supposed to be defending during that fight, he managed to push Yoda back and remain as the offensive side. And so your example is lame and irrelevant.
Originally posted by Based
However to suggest per 36 metrics are "inconsistent and misleading" is entirely wrong given a proper sample size.
"Given a proper sample size," hence the potential for inconsistency. That said, even if we directly scale Kawhi Leonard's raw numbers per 36 minutes (not factoring in other potential circumstances, mind you,) they're still inferior to Lebron's.
Lebron has already been acknowledged as the superior player so him being outplayed is a surprising outcome which doesn't prove that he is inferior to his rival because he had to chance to prove himself as the better player time and time again where in Yoda vs Sidious, that is not the case at all. Sidious and Yoda are clearly very close in power and skill but Sidious has better feats and even though he was supposed to be defending during that fight, he managed to push Yoda back and remain as the offensive side. And so your example is lame and irrelevant.
That said, even if we directly scale Kawhi Leonard's raw numbers per 36 minutes (not factoring in other potential circumstances, mind you,) they're still inferior to Lebron's.
Originally posted by psmith81992
It shows how pathetically inefficient Kobe is compared to them.That doesn't work because it was essentially the same Miami team from the year before. The only difference was San Antonio vengeance.
It also shows how "pathetically" insignificant Kobe is to a team compared to the likes of even James Harden, Kevin Durant, or Stephen Curry (win shares.)
The players were the same, not the quality of play. Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh literally disappeared, and Lebron was all that's left. It was almost reminiscent of the 2007 finals, tbh.
Also both Yoda and Palpatine seemed to get pushed back about the same amount. Problem is Yoda was on the edge and Sidious got thrown to the other side.
If the positions were reversed Yoda would have shown wicked handskills in the grab and Palpatine would have fell. The ending really shows nothing, and the "battle being too much" while true doesn't indicate being inferior. Because the battle includes everything that happened. Had the words been "Sidious was too much", there'd be more merit in it. As is, it tells us no new information we didn't already know.
The players were the same, not the quality of play. Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh literally disappeared, and Lebron was all that's left. It was almost reminiscent of the 2007 finals, tbh.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Little child, the point appears to be far above you. Nothing you said leads to the conclusion that my example is "lame and irrelevant". Who cares about Sidious having more feats? The point of contention was Sidious' superior based on the wording. You're wasting everyone's time by typing.
LOL no,you're using a basketball game as an example but it is not the same as a SW duel. They've different realities and so being outplayed for a few times is not as significant as being outdueled in a SW duel.
@Branlor Swift, I can easily say that the environment prevented Sidious from using Yoda's size disadvantage against him and that wouldn't be the case if they dueled in an open field. And even though the lightning clash was a stalemate, Sidious had the upper hand in TK.
Btw, I remember a quote saying Sidious bested him in that fight. Isn't that a more clear statement of superiority of Sidious?
LOL no,you're using a basketball game as an example but it is not the same as a SW duel. They've different realities and so being outplayed for a few times is not as significant as being outdueled in a SW duel.
Originally posted by SiniousWhen has Yoda's size been a disadvantage for him and when has Sidious' size been an advantage for him? If we're going entirely by assumptions then that opens the doors for all sorts of made up fantasy shit. The fact remains that neither showed anything that would garner favor over the other in a featureless environment. If all we're going on is facts, then you'd have to conclude a stalemate based entirely on that fight in a featureless environment. Nothing more, nothing less.
@Branlor Swift, I can easily say that the environment prevented Sidious from using Yoda's size disadvantage against him and that wouldn't be the case if they dueled in an open field. And even though the lightning clash was a stalemate, Sidious had the upper hand in TK.Btw, I remember a quote saying Sidious bested him in that fight. Isn't that a more clear statement of superiority for Sidious?
Which you would be using the pods to say he had the advantage? Nevermind the fact that Yoda didn't try to whip pods, but he actually stopped one backed by Sidious' might and threw it back at him where Sidious didn't even try to stop it. 😬
I'd like to think stopping an object cold that was backed by Sidious' power is a better feat than merely picking it up and throwing it. Though I'm not saying it proves better tk, but both showings in that regard were tip top in that fight.
It depends entirely on the wording. Nothing we saw in that fight showed superiority. If anything it portrayed two exact equals.
I'm not denying Sidious won or "bested" him, but that was less a case of Sidious' raw power advantage and more a case of bad placement by Yoda. Hell the backlash alone should prove how close they were.
Maybe Sidious' stamina would prevail in an extended fight, but we can't conclude that by what we saw. An unfortunate fall ended a fight early, like falls are want to do in Star Wars. Basically you have to look through other feats to try and pit one over the other, because that fight did anything but show a stronger combatant.