it never fails to amaze me how people get caught up in terminolgy. 'creation', 'existence', 'universe', 'multiverse'. they are used so interchangeably that they have lost any relevance, especially in the older books. but it says multiverse, and so zop decides to choose universe, cuz it suits him. despite on panel proof from BOTH series'.
i should be beyond being surprised by now.
Originally posted by operator616
Michael has defeated Spectre 3 times, and has one-shotted him twice in these 3 encounters. No mere "elder god tiers" can do that and you know it.Nekron defeated the weakass Crispus Spectre, not the same ones which Michael defeated (Cancara, hostless, and Corrigan Spectre). And that was only because he has no soul. Not to mention that Nekron was defeating the white light entity (a universal power) and easily handled the Anti-Monitor (another universal power - SCW version).
Yes, while empowered by all Earth's magic; that's not exactly what id call a small amp; and they battled for like 3 issues. While Michael outright one-shotted him.
Well actually Spectre does have feats which are trans-universal. And at one point he was creating universes casually without even knowing it.
You seem to think that Zop has it all figured out.
You do realize that Zopzop is still acting like that feat is everything there is to proving that Lucifer's power is multiversal simply because Zop doesn't know any better.
Anyone who has read the series would tell you that the fact that Lucifer was responsible for the original creation (a confirmed multiverse) and his clear superiority to the Endless, established his multliversal power. We also know that he's Michael's equal if not superior; same Michael who has actually one-shotted the Spectre-force and beat the hell out of Corrigan-Spectre. So even if you choose to believe that what Lucifer created in #13 is a mere universe, some facts, like the above i mentioned, are irrefutable.
Love the elder God tier part though. You clearly know your shit.
👆
Originally posted by leonidas
it never fails to amaze me how people get caught up in terminolgy. 'creation', 'existence', 'universe', 'multiverse'. they are used so interchangeably that they have lost any relevance, especially in the older books. but it says multiverse, and so zop decides to choose universe, cuz it suits him. despite on panel proof from BOTH series'.i should be beyond being surprised by now.
Originally posted by Zack M
When was it revealed that Lucifer built the Vertigo multiverse?
It was stated several times throughout the series that Lucifer and Michael were the ones who were responsible for the first creation as well. 3 examples would be issue #26, #39 and #75. Confirmed in the Vertigo encyclopedia .Lucifer #36-40 confirmed that the original creation was indeed a multiverse consisting of countless realities.
Other Vertigo comics like Sandman #4, #23, #54 #66, #67, Absolute Sandman, Hellblazer #249, Doom Patrol #29, Hunter Age of Magic #3 have all shown alternate realities proving the existence of the multiverse. Ive already posted all the scans before (Leonidas did too in this very thread), but they've been ignored time and time again.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Now we know you are trolling, troll.
Elaine called the merged creation in the next to last issue of the seris : a universe. Who is Elaine? Elaine is GOD. Not a created being like Lucifer or Michael. Not a small 'g' god like Thor. She's GOD. The ONE and ONLY GOD of the Vertigoverse.
If she says her creation is a universe, it's a damn universe.
SO either she's an idiot or Lucifer was talking out of his @$$ in bragging about 'his multiverse' that he needed his brother's power to create in the first place.
They can't both be right.
Originally posted by operator616
It was stated several times throughout the series that Lucifer and Michael were the ones who were responsible for the first creation as well. 3 examples would be issue #26, #39 and #75. Confirmed in the Vertigo encyclopedia .Lucifer #36-40 confirmed that the original creation was indeed a multiverse consisting of countless realities.Other Vertigo comics like Sandman #4, #23, #54 #66, #67, Absolute Sandman, Hellblazer #249, Doom Patrol #29, Hunter Age of Magic #3 have all shown alternate realities proving the existence of the multiverse. Ive already posted all the scans before (Leonidas did too in this very thread), but they've been ignored time and time again.
Pretty much settles it then.
Originally posted by zopzopSuper trolling.
It's not trolling.Elaine called the merged creation in the next to last issue of the seris : a universe. Who is Elaine? Elaine is GOD. Not a created being like Lucifer or Michael. Not a small 'g' god like Thor. She's GOD. The ONE and ONLY GOD of the Vertigoverse.
If she says her creation is a universe, it's a damn universe.
SO either she's an idiot or Lucifer was talking out of his @$$ in bragging about 'his multiverse' that he needed his brother's power to create in the first place.
They can't both be right.
Creation is shown time and again to be a multiverse on panel.
Lucifer also created a multiverse as he repeated the act that he did in the original creation and even called it a multiverse.
But OK.
Cling to that nonsense.
Originally posted by Juntai
Super trolling.Creation is shown time and again to be a multiverse on panel.
Lucifer also created a multiverse as he repeated the act that he did in the original creation and even called it a multiverse.
But OK.
Cling to that nonsense.
Pretty sure a one-off statement overrides decades of on-panel evidence and direct statements by the most credible characters imaginable.
/sarcasm
Originally posted by zopzop
It's not trolling....If she says her creation is a universe, it's a damn universe.
They can't both be right.
of course it's trolling zop. and they can absolutely both be right given the fact that there is no 'absolute' definition of creation/universe/multiverse. you're applying YOUR preconceived notion to the terms. neither the books, nor the writers, adhere to YOUR notions. hence, both of them are right, and you are, blatantly, wrong.
this debate really has grown tiresome though. i'm gonna request a mod ruling on whether the vertigoverse is a mutliverse. i know a mod ruling won't change your opinion, but at least it will allow me to open a vertigo-based thread without having to read any more of this ridiculous denial of on panel proof.
Originally posted by leonidas
of course it's trolling zop. and they can absolutely both be right given the fact that there is no 'absolute' definition of creation/universe/multiverse. you're applying YOUR preconceived notion to the terms. neither the books, nor the writers, adhere to YOUR notions. hence, both of them are right, and you are, blatantly, wrong.this debate really has grown tiresome though. i'm gonna request a mod ruling on whether the vertigoverse is a mutliverse. i know a mod ruling won't change your opinion, but at least it will allow me to open a vertigo-based thread without having to read any more of this ridiculous denial of on panel proof.
While your at it, ask the mods if its okay for you to continue to act like a dick about this whole thing.
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
While your at it, ask the mods if its okay for you to continue to act like a dick about this whole thing.
😂 aww, look how cute he is jumping in as zop's white knight. sure he must be thrilled to have you. 👆 anyway, this is very old and tiresome between zop and i and others, and this sh!t drags down every vertigo thread, every time. about time it ended.
Originally posted by leonidas
😂 aww, look how cute he is jumping in as zop's white knight. sure he must be thrilled to have you. 👆 anyway, this is very old and tiresome between zop and i and others, and this sh!t drags down every vertigo thread, every time. about time it ended.
Its ironic since he had a fuss about me agreeing with Rao about Superman. Then again you can't expect reason from a loon.
Originally posted by leonidasPeople are free to have their own opinions. Zop has a scan that enforces his and you choose to have your own opinion. This thread is about posters sharing their own opinions not the mods deciding for us.
😂 aww, look how cute he is jumping in as zop's white knight. sure he must be thrilled to have you. 👆 anyway, this is very old and tiresome between zop and i and others, and this sh!t drags down every vertigo thread, every time. about time it ended.
