Originally posted by zopzop
Remember these?Dr Strange and Mordo also tanked the Big Bang when Genesis blew up in their faces.
Rick Jones tanked the Big Bang when Entropy blew up in his face.
Warlock tanked the Big Bang when Thanos/HOTI blew up in his face.
Reed tanked the Big Bang when AE blew up in his face.
There's probably more I'm missing.
They were literally at 'ground zero' and yet they survived just fine. They all abstract level?
Unless of course, the characters at ground zero were not meant to be hurt by said Big Bang. That, makes more sense.
So just out of curiosity, Reed survived a big bang based on his own innate power..how? It sounds weird for Marvel to have him tank such a blast with no real explanation as to how he managed to do it.
Also I would think there is a vast different between the big bang of a single universe and that of a multiverse.
Originally posted by operator616
Also, some people don't seem to understand that the whole debate of whether Lucifer created a single universe or a multiverse is irrelevant. Because Lucifer was also the one who created the original Vertigo reality which without a doubt was confirmed to be a multiverse. Among other things like his interactions with the Endless which confirm that he is indeed a multiversal power.
Considering this fact, why is the "universe" or "multiverse" debate even still going on? If both universe and multiverse are used to describe what Lucifer created..but we also know he created the original Vertigo reality which we know is a multiverse..then what the f*ck..why would anyone say "makes more sense to assume the universe label is the correct one" ?
Unless there are details you are leaving out..this universe/multiverse debate should be over.
^ the reason the debate is still going on is because this fact is outright ignored. Everybody who's claiming that Lucifer isn't multiversal is basically trying to avoid this point.
And how do they avoid it? Just ignore it. Because why the hell not.
You'll notice that when Zop quotes my posts he literally doesn't respond to this particular point and only replies to irrelevat ones. Which is why i decided not to respond back, because i know that no matter how many times i repeat my point he'll keep avoiding it.
Red herring at its best, basically.
Though I had thought the story goes that God created Lucifer and Michael and they both worked together to create the original multiverse. Though even just being half responsible for a multiverse still puts him above universal level.
Also hasn't Lucifer destroyed entire dimensions just by his sheer presence?
Originally posted by Surtur
Though I had thought the story goes that God created Lucifer and Michael and they both worked together to create the original multiverse. Though even just being half responsible for a multiverse still puts him above universal level.
Lucifer along with Michael were responsible for the original creation. Though it's not like each of them created half of the multiverse each. They have specific roles. Michael releases the energy, and Lucifer gives it form (shapes it into matter, creating all the planets in the universes, etc..). So Lucifer is basically responsible for all the matter in the multiverse.
Originally posted by SurturAlso hasn't Lucifer destroyed entire dimensions just by his sheer presence?
Yes. The mansions of silence dimension.
Originally posted by Surtur
Though I had thought the story goes that God created Lucifer and Michael and they both worked together to create the original multiverse. Though even just being half responsible for a multiverse still puts him above universal level.Also hasn't Lucifer destroyed entire dimensions just by his sheer presence?
Lucifer cannot create out of literal nothing (e.g. the void before creation, the void outside of creation). That does not mean he cannot manipulate everything that already exists, which is the only thing relevant in a battle setting. Even if the fight were to take place in the void, Lucifer would still be able to f*** his opponent, unless his opponent were Oblivion or something.
To anyone trying to use his lack of the Dunamis Demiurgos to lowball him - I would ask them to point out examples of anyone their elevating above Lucifer doing anything in a true void, or without something existing before. Even if you take one of Marvel's many genesis stories (AE, Sise-neg, HOTU, etc), all those happened within creation. None of them were literally made out of nothing. None of them couldn't be replicated by Lucifer (as he already did - twice).
Originally posted by operator616
Lucifer along with Michael were responsible for the original creation. Though it's not like each of them created half of the multiverse each. They have specific roles. Michael releases the energy, and Lucifer gives it form (shapes it into matter, creating all the planets in the universes, etc..). So Lucifer is basically responsible for all the matter in the multiverse.
So then technically isn't Lucifer also responsible for the more abstract things..like time itself?
Originally posted by Cogito
(AE, Sise-neg, HOTU, etc), all those happened within creation.None of them were literally made out of nothing.
Those examples you used all took place in literal voids of absolute nothingness.
ie. Those cats created from nothingness.
I have no comment on Lucifer.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree here my friend.Those examples you used all took place in literal voids of absolute nothingness.
ie. Those cats created from nothingness.
I have no comment on Lucifer.
All of those events took place after the original creation - after the energies already existed. Sure those energies were warped, absorbed, re-released, etc., but they were already there.
Marvel doesn't have a true creation story (i.e. from literal nothing), just an infinite series of multiverses. Therefore, I would argue, there's just no situation in Marvel (except maybe Oblivion's realm; not going to debate that) that would necessitate Michael's power, or where Lucifer would be powerless.
Originally posted by leonidas
that's an interesting take. could be true i guess. thing is, there really isn't anyone analogous to mike or lucifer in marvel. the approaches are fundamentally different and they don't fit in anywhere. all we have to go on is a form of ABC logic.
Well, it's an irrelevant debate anyways. As long as Lucifer has an opponent he can do damage - in a void or otherwise. Also the battleground isn't in a void, so doubly irrelevant.
Originally posted by CogitoAll of those events took place after the original creation - after the energies already existed.
Sure those energies were warped, absorbed, re-released, etc., but they were already there.
Both accounts take place in total voids. The energy Michael releases "existed" also, within Michael.
I personally don't see a difference.
Originally posted by CogitoMarvel doesn't have a true creation story (i.e. from literal nothing)
just an infinite series of multiverses.
Then the characters you mentioned re-made that first creation.
Lucifer was also created to shape the power he needed from his brother. That's his function so it isn't impressive since that's what he's made to do and it requires his brothers power to even do so. His brother is far more powerful and yet he was defeated by someone with far less power showing durability that doesn't hold a candle to the power he contains in demiurgic capacity.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree. The energies were released no different than Michael releasing his. Imo.
Basically, a containment vessel explodes with the energies of creation. (Michael and the Marvel cats mentioned)Both accounts take place in total voids. The energy Michael releases "existed" also, within Michael.
I personally don't see a difference.
😬
Very different. Happy to debate it another time, but it's not relevant here.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucifer was also created to shape the power he needed from his brother. That's his function so it isn't impressive since that's what he's made to do and it requires his brothers power to even do so. His brother is far more powerful and yet he was defeated by someone with far less power showing durability that doesn't hold a candle to the power he contains in demiurgic capacity.