Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Give them more options, better jobs and better payed?
Okay, so we can explore this. What do you mean by more options and how do we provide them? How do we bring in more jobs? How do we bring in more money to pay those who work said jobs?
Then side question: do you feel we need to get rid of all racism and discrimination? I know that might seem odd, but it is a legit question.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Jobs are not a right, they are a earned earned privilege. No where in the constitution does it state the government is required to supply jobs to people.The idea that we are just supposed to give jobs to a certain group based on skin color is in itself prejudice and un constitutional.
This is why I am asking about if people feel we need to get rid of all racism and discrimination. Since technically that means saying goodbye to affirmative action.
Or on the other hand not getting rid of all of it means now someone has to decide which racism and discrimination should be allowed and which shouldn't. Of course then I wouldn't know how we even decide who should have the right to decide those things.
Originally posted by Surtur
This is why I am asking about if people feel we need to get rid of all racism and discrimination. Since technically that means saying goodbye to affirmative action.Or on the other hand not getting rid of all of it means now someone has to decide which racism and discrimination should be allowed and which shouldn't. Of course then I wouldn't know how we even decide who should have the right to decide those things.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Affirmative action is racism in the same way that a handicap in golf is cheating. It's something put in place to try to level an unlevel playing field. If people weren't racist we wouldn't need affirmative action, but what do you know? Lots of people are still racist.
Affirmative action is discrimination though. You can sit and argue it's necessary discrimination, but that is why I asked the question I asked.
Yes if people weren't racist we wouldn't need it. Just like if some people weren't criminals we wouldn't need cops. Lots of situations in life could be fixed if people did the shit they are supposed to do and didn't do the shit they aren't supposed to do.
Let me ask you this though: do you feel affirmative action has ever resulted in a situation where someone more skilled was passed up for someone else just due to race? Now I know the response will be something along the lines of "I'm sure qualified minorities have been passed up due to racism" but that isn't what I'm asking you about.
Originally posted by SurturLet me ask you this though: do you feel affirmative action has ever resulted in a situation where someone more skilled was passed up for someone else just due to race? Now I know the response will be something along the lines of "I'm sure qualified minorities have been passed up due to racism" but that isn't what I'm asking you about.
Chris Rock had a pretty good summary of his feelings toward AA, where he said he didn't think he should ever get a job that should have gone to a more qualified white applicant because of his race, but joked that he'd be all for it if it came down to a tie-breaker. I'm of that frame of mind too. I don't believe in lowering standards, but I do believe in quotas. Say you have a business in a 50/50 white and black community that only hires white people (or alternatively only hires black people), unless there are no applicants of the opposite race, that's a very fishy hiring practice and probably speaks to outright discrimination.
When it comes to college admissions, I don't really believe in race-based criteria. I think scholarships and such should be given to people of lower income brackets rather than based on their race.
That is how I feel. If we want to use AA to give a person a job over someone who is white then the person being given said job better be 100% equal to that person that is getting passed up for them. At least with that way the employer doesn't have to settle for a sub-par employee just because of race. Which just opens up a new can of worms, what if an employer flat out knows the person who would be hired with AA is less skilled then whoever they personally had in mind.
Can you fight it? What happens then? Can you argue that a businesses optimum chance for success is to hire the best employee's possible? Though for me if a person owns their own business shouldn't they be able to hire whoever they want? They should be able to hire nothing but albino midgets if that is what they want right?
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But anyways, did anyone see this? Ridiculous:
Even worse is if you read the comments...well it seems like people were saying that at first people were using videos of white people fighting to try to say this wasn't just blacks, but then it turned out that was a lie and the videos were years old. Just seems odd if true, why try to lie about who was involved?
Also notice the ages: 13-20. Motherf*cking 13 yr. olds rioting in a god damn mall.
Re: One Solution to America's Black Crime problem.
Originally posted by dadudemonI feel like you are making an incorrect point in your post.
The solution? A black male minister went around the neigbhorhoods talking to all of the young men (many of them part of gangs).This reduction in black homicides, in Boston, is considered the "Boston Miracle."
Boston youth violence was dropped by 79%.
My take:
Many of you know that I think the US has a black culture issue with violent crime. I don't think it is a race issue, it is a cultural issue (and I cited my sources that showed that African immigrants were clearly far less violent/committed far less crimes). I am always looking for ways we can tackle this black crime issue in America. When you have a country where the majority of homicides are black on black murders (while only comprising about 12% of the population), you clearly have a problem. A severe problem. And it is obviously rooted somewhere in racism.
I know many social liberals shy away from talking about how the black community has education, poverty, and crime issues. It is just not politically correct to point out that black people have several problems. But I think that attitude, in and of itself, is racist. You can't pretend that there aren't racial issues in the US and hope they go away.
So this solution this pastor came up with tells me that there is a real way (among many) to help with the violence in the black community.
What are your thoughts on this?
I don't think liberals shy away from the fact that education and poverty levels among minorities are unacceptable.
People know that there are problems in these areas and often the poor quality of education and the high poverty levels lead to higher crime rates. So fixing these issues are important topics to me. I think most liberals would agree with me. Heck I think in some ways most conservatives agree that these things are problems.
The problem is tackling these issues in a constructive manner which is where things really fall apart between the two sides.
I don't know if people shy away, but most of the stuff you hear about in the media in regards to the black community usually has to do with racism or police brutality. Do you think I am correct in making that statement?
Since to me it legitimately comes off like the only concern the media in general has is the cops. There also is this tendency that whenever someone in a media spotlight steps up and goes against the grain and talks about the issues plaguing the community that are more severe then cops..that person ends up just getting attacked. Or at the very least they are just dismissed and outright ignored.
Then if such a person happens to be black the shit really hits the fan because then other blacks will come and call them coons and uncle tom's and all that stupid shit.
Originally posted by SurturI agree because the news is all about ratings.
I don't know if people shy away, but most of the stuff you hear about in the media in regards to the black community usually has to do with racism or police brutality. Do you think I am correct in making that statement?Since to me it legitimately comes off like the only concern the media in general has is the cops.
In order to get them you need to plug into sensationalist stories to grab attention. It's easy to cover, strikes a basic cord with most viewers, and happens just enough to be a steady steam of news but not enough to oversaturate itself.
Unlike crime rates which is so normalized now into society it won't generate buzz.
On the flip side of that wouldn't you say people try to downplay the effect of racism and police brutality plays in society to try and undermine it as a valid topic of discussion? Mostly by citing black on black crime to say we don't need to worry about police brutality or inequality in the justice system?
Originally posted by Surtur
Okay, so we can explore this. What do you mean by more options and how do we provide them? How do we bring in more jobs? How do we bring in more money to pay those who work said jobs?Then side question: do you feel we need to get rid of all racism and discrimination? I know that might seem odd, but it is a legit question.
Originally posted by Time-ImmemorialI wasn't talking specifically about black people, as I think that's an approach that could be used to tackle the poverty issue as a whole. Because you know, white people can be poor and commit crime too.
Jobs are not a right, they are a earned earned privilege. No where in the constitution does it state the government is required to supply jobs to people.The idea that we are just supposed to give jobs to a certain group based on skin color is in itself prejudice and un constitutional.
Btw, Time, no it's not in the constitution but if it helps in the fight against poverty and crime, why not create more jobs that are also better remunerated?
I think some try to downplay it. On the other hand I think some try to bring it up when police brutality gets talked about because they think if they don't it won't ever get brought up.
Since for me I feel ignoring all problems but racist cops is also an attempt to try to downplay all the various issues facing the community. I feel like if it got the attention it should realistically be given then people wouldn't necessarily have to hijack a discussion about the cops.
I also feel like it needs to come from within, it needs to come from blacks and yet they don't talk about the other issues as much as they do cops. They don't get as upset over other issues. Sure secretly I suppose they could be just as upset, but actions speak louder then words. It constantly feels like the only problems someone from the community can hear are those with cops and anything else is just for lesser men or something. All those issues are things we should put a pin in to explore at another time..once we've cleared up all corruption nationwide. Which that attitude guarantee's no issues will ever be faced besides the cop issue.
I can talk about this all day long but I'm not black so it doesn't mean the same thing and I think people know that is true.
Originally posted by SurturSee here is another fundamental issue I think people tend to bring up that I don't agree with.
I think some try to downplay it. On the other hand I think some try to bring it up when police brutality gets talked about because they think if they don't it won't ever get brought up.Since for me I feel ignoring all problems but racist cops is also an attempt to try to downplay all the various issues facing the community. I feel like if it got the attention it should realistically be given then people wouldn't necessarily have to hijack a discussion about the cops.
I also feel like it needs to come from within, it needs to come from blacks and yet they don't talk about the other issues as much as they do cops. They don't get as upset over other issues. Sure secretly I suppose they could be just as upset, but actions speak louder then words. It constantly feels like the only problems someone from the community can hear are those with cops and anything else is just for lesser men or something. All those issues are things we should put a pin in to explore at another time..once we've cleared up all corruption nationwide. Which that attitude guarantee's no issues will ever be faced besides the cop issue.
I can talk about this all day long but I'm not black so it doesn't mean the same thing and I think people know that is true.
The idea that Black people should fix there own issues. This statement is smacks of silliness to me. For one thing the idea that black people somehow accept this and don't care about the crime in their communities is silly. Of course they do. There are plenty of people in predominately minority areas that don't want crime in their homes.
I also tend to think it tries to make the issue to easy to solve. I think if you're going to solve the problem of high crime rates you need to tackle poverty and education in these communities. The problem is poverty levels are hard thing to for communities to overcome without outside assistance. After all poverty isn't a choice. It is the outcome of a number of factors some in your control and some that are out of it.
I also tend to think inequality in the justice system plays a much bigger role in higher crime rates in these areas than most conservatives want to give it credit for. This includes police brutality, imbalanced sentencing for similar crimes, and larger fines. It also creates a system of mistrust and hatred between two groups that should be working together. It also helps create an uphill battle for minorities that are costing in and out of a justice system that favors punishment that only hurts those that are subjected to it. Helping create an environment of lower opportunities to break out of violent culture. Or do you not agree?
Originally posted by Newjak
See here is another fundamental issue I think people tend to bring up that I don't agree with.The idea that Black people should fix there own issues. This statement is smacks of silliness to me. For one thing the idea that black people somehow accept this and don't care about the crime in their communities is silly. Of course they do. There are plenty of people in predominately minority areas that don't want crime in their homes.
I also tend to think it tries to make the issue to easy to solve. I think if you're going to solve the problem of high crime rates you need to tackle poverty and education in these communities. The problem is poverty levels are hard thing to for communities to overcome without outside assistance. After all poverty isn't a choice. It is the outcome of a number of factors some in your control and some that are out of it.
Blacks are best suited to identify problems in their communities and offer strategies/solutions. Then the next step is find organizations/agencies that will partner with the community to fix the problems.
The issues have to be brought out in the communities themselves because no one likes a "tyrant" coming in and just issuing change to "fix" things.
Originally posted by Q99
You can ask criminals, but we know criminals won't answer, because they're criminals and do not view themselves as answerable to anyone ...It's backwards, putting the responsibility of good policing on the citizenry being policed, and not the people who's job it is to do so.
Heck, if it could work that way, why would we need police to begin with? "Hey all you criminals! Just stop being criminals!" ...
I think this discussion to date has been seriously hurt by the original poster not taking the time to
A) make sure the link he provided in the first thread actually WORKS when clicked
and
B) give a clarifying rebuttal
Q, are you aware that what you are saying would not happen is precisely what DID happen in the case Dadudemon has presented as the topic for this thread?
It doesn't seem so, and your comment in the previous thread I participated in with you suggests that you would be unable to watch what Jeffrey Brown presented his TED Talks audience even if Dadudemon's link DID work, which it doesn't.
Here, perhaps I can help not only you, but Dadudemon as well.
This thread at the very least should have a working thread to Jeffrey Brown' s story, IF it is possible to provide, for it is a story that deserves not only to be told, but one that can actually be listened to by people who want to be helped or inspired:
Originally posted by snowdragonYou see this right here. The Blacks are best suited. You've already labeled a group as them before you even offer any suggestions. I think that fundamentally changes the conversation from the start.
Blacks are best suited to identify problems in their communities and offer strategies/solutions. Then the next step is find organizations/agencies that will partner with the community to fix the problems.The issues have to be brought out in the communities themselves because no one likes a "tyrant" coming in and just issuing change to "fix" things.
They are a group of vastly different people. The solutions for one community will not be the same for another. We need to work together as Americans and not make it a us and them type scenario. I think that hurts more than helps. They are human beings and we should work together as human beings to identify problems.
I think the best solution is bettering education and job opportunities in these communities.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I think this discussion to date has been seriously hurt by the original poster not taking the time toA) make sure the link he provided in the first thread actually WORKS when clicked
and
B) give a clarifying rebuttal
Q, are you aware that what you are saying would not happen is precisely what DID happen in the case Dadudemon has presented as the topic for this thread?
It doesn't seem so, and your comment in the previous thread I participated in with you suggests that you would be unable to watch what Jeffrey Brown presented his TED Talks audience even if Dadudemon's link DID work, which it doesn't.Here, perhaps I can help not only you, but Dadudemon as well.
This thread at the very least should have a working thread to Jeffrey Brown' s story, IF it is possible to provide, for it is a story that deserves not only to be told, but one that can actually be listened to by people who want to be helped or inspired:
Gah ...
In my last sentence above that should be:
" ... want TO help or be inspired ..."