I think all of you just wasted your time. The force doesn't take into account how heavy something is. Unless something in Legends has disproven that, but Yoda does say you use the force by concentrating on the force around an object, and "this crude nature" matters not. So the force doesn't care about size or weight, but it's more difficult to concentrate on the force around a larger object, and of course, objects farther away.
Originally posted by Zentrex
I think all of you just wasted your time. The force doesn't take into account how heavy something is. Unless something in Legends has disproven that, but Yoda does say you use the force by concentrating on the force around an object, and "this crude nature" matters not. So the force doesn't care about size or weight, but it's more difficult to concentrate on the force around a larger object, and of course, objects farther away.
He obviously doesn't mean that literally or else you could create all sorts of loopholes like condensing the matter of, say, a continent into a really tiny object (Star Wars tech should be able to do this) and then using it as a telekinetic weapon.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
He obviously doesn't mean that literally or else you could create all sorts of loopholes like condensing the matter of, say, a continent into a really tiny object (Star Wars tech should be able to do this) and then using it as a telekinetic weapon.
If he doesn't mean that literally, how does he mean it? I get your point, but such technology would only exist for plot purposes, and they can just say in the star wars lore that such technology is not possible, or has never been created or attempted before.
And it's not just Yoda, either. It's also the book "weapon of a jedi", which isn't legends, but it shows that when George Lucas was creating the Force, he thought it up as what it was described as.
And who's to say that the weapon you speak of is a loophole? Yeah, maybe a really dense object being really easy to lift CAN provide a type of weapon for a jedi. Perhaps they go to a planet with high density rocks, and manage to use rocks there as telekinetic weapons. That might even make for a good story. In fact, I remember a young adult novel called "Spore" in which Jerec used the force on these low-gravity boots (which weighed like 200 pounds, but were the size of regular shoes) to cause some damage. On top of that, it can show why gasses is effective weapons against force users. They're light, but spread out, and thus hard to move. So, someone with enough knowledge of the force could maybe make use of large, lightweight objects which would be difficult to lift with the force, but easy normally, creating easy-to-make barriers for Jedi. And what if a jedi creates a lightsaber with a super heavy rock inside it so it can't be lifted by a normal hand, only through the force? That would make for a clever weapon. So, yeah, it's not a loophole, but a pretty cool plot element.
Originally posted by Zentrex
If he doesn't mean that literally, how does he mean it?
It's clearly metaphorical, with some truth with respect to the psychological contributions. That's the only explanation that doesn't break Star Wars.
I get your point, but such technology would only exist for plot purposes, and they can just say in the star wars lore that such technology is not possible, or has never been created or attempted before.
I took the extreme example (and in Legends they do mine neutronium, etc.) of a general principle, that having a power that moves things indifferent to mass breaks the entire system and leads to all sorts of no-limit abilities where if I'm in a star destroyer as a Jedi I can tear all of it apart by hugging the hull and just deconstructing it because force (the physics term) doesn't matter to me. Luke shouldn't have struggled to manipulate those artificial singularities at all in NJO, after all. You allow for absurd perpetual-motion/free-energy situations where by playing games with density and space configurations a random Jedi padawan could power the Death Star.
And it's not just Yoda, either. It's also the book "weapon of a jedi", which isn't legends, but it shows that when George Lucas was creating the Force, he thought it up as what it was described as.
And there's a reason why he decided not to give the Jedi those abilities.
And who's to say that the weapon you speak of is a loophole? Yeah, maybe a really dense object being really easy to lift CAN provide a type of weapon for a jedi. Perhaps they go to a planet with high density rocks, and manage to use rocks there as telekinetic weapons. That might even make for a good story. In fact, I remember a young adult novel called "Spore" in which Jerec used the force on these low-gravity boots (which weighed like 200 pounds, but were the size of regular shoes) to cause some damage. On top of that, it can show why gasses is effective weapons against force users. They're light, but spread out, and thus hard to move. So, someone with enough knowledge of the force could maybe make use of large, lightweight objects which would be difficult to lift with the force, but easy normally, creating easy-to-make barriers for Jedi. And what if a jedi creates a lightsaber with a super heavy rock inside it so it can't be lifted by a normal hand, only through the force? That would make for a clever weapon. So, yeah, it's not a loophole, but a pretty cool plot element.
No it's not a "pretty cool plot element", lol. If they can make artificial singularities, which they can, then they completely screw over the mythos by combining it with telekinesis having no dependency on mass.
I don't think you've thought this through very carefully, honestly.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's clearly metaphorical, with some truth with respect to the psychological contributions. That's the only explanation that doesn't break Star Wars.
It's the only explanation that doesn't break certain stories. But, you can imagine star wars as having several continuities, and most of those can follow this rule.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I took the extreme example (and in Legends they do mine neutronium, etc.) of a general principle, that having a power that moves things indifferent to mass breaks the entire system and leads to all sorts of no-limit abilities where if I'm in a star destroyer as a Jedi I can tear all of it apart by hugging the hull and just deconstructing it because force (the physics term) doesn't matter to me. Luke shouldn't have struggled to manipulate those artificial singularities at all in NJO, after all. You allow for absurd perpetual-motion/free-energy situations where by playing games with density and space configurations a random Jedi padawan could power the Death Star.
The force allows for perpetual motion/free energy anyway. That's what it is. And it's harder to lift things which are harder to conceptualize in one's mind with the force. That's the "catch". this makes playing games with density and space configurations hard enough to make it impossible, for most force wielder, anyway.
I didn't go into detail, but we know it's harder to lift a bigger object, because it's harder to concentrate around. That's why abilities like Pyrokenesis are so difficult to control. You have to keep your mind wrapped around every aspect of the flame, even if it's tiny. So you can't just "mess around" with density and space configurations as easy as all that. You can, however, maybe build a lightsaber out of neutronium and then make it impossible to use without the force. And also, if something like the hull of a star destroyer is BIG, then it's harder to destroy, no matter the density. Also, singularities aren't just dense objects. If an object is so dense that gravity, space, and other forces are being impacted by it, then it would be harder to focus the force around it, just as it's harder to focus the force around something moving, like fire, gas, or blaster bolts. So Luke absolutely should have struggled as he did.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
And there's a reason why he decided not to give the Jedi those abilities.
He DID give jedi those abilities.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
No it's not a "pretty cool plot element", lol. If they can make artificial singularities, which they can, then they completely screw over the mythos by combining it with telekinesis having no dependency on mass.
I'll admit I didn't explain that size and distance weren't the only factors. Anything which is harder to focus the force around is harder to move. And the kinds of things you describe would be near impossible for a mind not fully in tune with the force to conceive.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think you've thought this through very carefully, honestly.
I didn't explain it very carefully. And I didn't think through this, George Lucas did.
And, actually, I wanted to add, this is what I said on the "assessing Soa" post about this way of assessing the Force and why it's valid and true to Lucas' original vision and all that:
...feats are comparable. While nothing matches Grand Master Luke's feats, or similarly overpowered ones, I think the force bonds and projection we see in the Last Jedi is comparable to Legends-level powers.
So, in the Original Trilogy we're told that it's possible to lift giant things with the force because size doesn't matter in the Force. But it's still more difficult to lift objects which are larger. Why? Well, in order to lift something using the force, (it's implied by Yoda in Empire strikes back but states it directly in the canon novel Weapon of a Jedi), one must feel the force around them and the object they wish the move, and "swim" through the force and become the force, which the object is part of. Then, it's as simple as moving a part of your body, since all things are bound together by the force, like your body is bound to your mind. Which is also why becoming One with Force causes you to become so powerful. You are connected to all things, and are all living things embodied now. It would also explain why being completely one with the force means you can no longer affect the physical world, because you are no longer connected to the physical world in any way, just the essense of life. But that's retconned in both the legends and new new canon, so whatever, I guess. But I haven't answered the question of why it's harder to lift bigger things yet. So, if you have to wrap your focus around an entire object in order to lift it, you have to feel the force all around it and you. If the object is small, like a stone, then you can focus on the force around it easily. If the object is the size of an X-Wing, it takes considerably more practice and concentration and meditation. This also explains why it's harder to move things which are farther away. You have to sense the force that surrounds something WAY far away, yourself, thereby making you need to focus on the force between you and that object, so it would be much harder to lift something up that's several meters away, than something that's only inches away. This is why Vader strangling Ozzel from so far away is an incredible display of power, which it has been acknowledged as being in many books. He can reach so far through the force that he can kill people which are far enough away from him that they can't be seen through the naked eye. And Sidious strangling Count Dooku from half-way across the galaxy in TCW is even more impressive. So basically, when using the force, size and distance matter, but weight doesn't. So, lifting a cotton ball which spans 10 feet by 10 feet would be just as difficult as lifting a lead block that's 10 feet by 10 feet. And a tiny piece of a neutron star would be just as easy to lift as a rock that same size, regardless of density.
So when Luke creates that projection from Achch-To to Crait, it spans LIGHTYEARS. If he can effectively become so in tune with the force that he can do that, he should be able to concentrate on the force around Dreadnaughts no problem. He should be ripping them out of the Sky. And that's not even the end of it. Snoke creates that bond between Rey and Kylo. This bond requires the kind of energy which would kill Rey. It's also a strong enough bond to teleport actual matter (when Kylo touches the rainwater from Ahch-to), make Kylo and Rey forget their actual surroundings (When Rey fires that blaster off in the hut), and make them see the surroundings of the others (the Ben Swolo scene). It's also powerful enough to make them touch each other, and teleport their own essense and part of their physical body over lightyears. That kind of power is close to GM Luke's feat with pinning Caedus to that chair. And it rivals the most powerful of legends characters, so yeah, maybe Canon = Legends, now.
Originally posted by Azronger
I now genuinely think LeGenD lied when he said he had an education.
Seriously, get a life. How would you? Staying in your mom's basement for too long has taken a toll on your mental health.
AT-AT isn't as big as people assuming it to be. Movie based shots can be tricky for size-related estimations.
Official dimensions of AT-AT are:
22.5 m in TH
~16 m in TL