Originally posted by Beniboybling
Pack it up Pellycan, the Databank confirms that Anakin > Vader, so he wins.
That's like right after his injuries though.
Of course he's lost power (and potential) at that point, otherwise he would have overthrown Palpatine long before ANH.
Canon however has Vader having grown more powerful than Anakin a few years post ROTS in LOTS.
Originally posted by Darth ThorIt uses the future tense though i.e would make him weaker, not had.
That's like right after his injuries though.Of course he's lost power (and potential) at that point, otherwise he would have overthrown Palpatine long before ANH.
Canon however has Vader having grown more powerful than Anakin a few years post ROTS in LOTS.
Originally posted by Darth Thorhttp://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery
That's not necessarily future tense. But in any case still might just mean his potential.Anyway is that from the sw.com? Link?
It refers to what will be, not what is currently.
It also describes Vader as weaker than "before", not weaker than what he could have become.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery
Thanks.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It refers to what will be, not what is currently.
Can be interpreted as both IMO.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It also describes Vader as weaker than "before", not weaker than what he could have become.
Yes but it's describing Vader currently. As in right now after his injuries. He doesn't know yet what he could become, because it goes on to say he lies to Vader to "test" his current power. And that's when he realized he still has great power. Obviously with time and further training that power can increase, but Sidious wouldn't know by just how much yet. It's not like a Midi-Chlorian count would be much help either. Because his MC count would be the same.
Originally posted by Darth ThorNot sure how.
Can be interpreted as both IMO.
Yes but it's describing Vader currently. As in right now after his injuries. He doesn't know yet what he could become, because it goes on to say he lies to Vader to "test" his current power. And that's when he realized he still has great power. Obviously with time and further training that power can increase, but Sidious wouldn't know by just how much yet. It's not like a Midi-Chlorian count would be much help either. Because his MC count would be the same.It's describing Vader's altered future, and from an objective perspective, given that it says "Sidious knew" rather than Sidious suspected or believed. It is pointing out Palpatine's awareness of an objective fact, not his personal musings on the subject.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's describing what will be and from an objective perspective, given that it says Sidious "knew" rather than Sidious suspected or believed. It is pointing out Palpatine's awareness of an objective fact, not his personal musings on the subject.
That's exactly my point though. Sidious couldn't possibly know how powerful the new Vader could/would become years or decades from now.
He could only know that he will definitely be weaker now than he was a few hours earlier. And to some extent that's a permanent change.
Which is why he tested how powerful he is now.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Again, its describing Palpatine's awareness of an objective fact, whether or not you believe Sidious was certain in his belief is irrelevant to the fact he was correct - Vader would be weaker than before.
The only objective fact I can see is that his broken body would weaken him. Sidious knew that. But the fact that Sidious had to test his current power level means Sidious didn't know how weakened he would be. Without knowing that there's no possible objective way of knowing if Vader could one day surpass Anakin Skywalker in power. Because it's not like Skywalker was even close to his full potential before his injuries.
No, you're just not paying attention to the language used.
Again, its says "Sidious knew Vader would be weaker than before." But if that were false, it wouldn't have been described as knowledge.
For example, if I were to write that "X knew the world was flat." That would be incorrect, because it is not knowledge, the world is round. Instead I'd write "X believed the world was flat" To reflect that it is a personal judgement, not factual information.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No, you're just not paying attention to the language used.
Actually I am. And honestly There's not just one way of looking at it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Again, its says "Sidious knew Vader would be weaker than before." But if that were false, it wouldn't have been described as knowledge.
And I'm not arguing that. Right After his injuries (prior to further training and mastery of the dark side), of course he would be weaker.
That doesn't mean he couldn't one day be as strong as he once was, or stronger.
Again the fact that he tested him, means he didn't actually know how much power he had lost. So couldn't possibly know his potential he had left.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
For example, if I were to write that "X knew the world was flat." That would be incorrect, because it is not knowledge, the world is round. Instead I'd write "X believed the world was flat" To reflect that it is a personal judgement, not factual information.
The difference there is those "facts" are not subject to change.
Vader's power level however is.
Just like Maul's body was also broken. IOW he was greatly weakened as well. And yet we know he one day still surpassed his previous self in power (if only barely).
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He thinks of him as his past self. He refers to himself in the third person because he views his former self as someone who was weak and naive.
And a different person, who was weak, naive and killed by Vader. Unless Vader legitimately believes he's commited suicide and is a ghost then he thinks of Anakin as a different person.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
On Mortis the most powerful Nexus in the Galaxy where he essentially was fulfilling the prophecy.
The same nexus the Ones can draw from, darling. 👆 And the Prophecy he has is based on his potential/raw power anyways.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm aware. I'm saying he hadn't surpassed Vader even though he had accepted Sidious's training to a point.
Which is based on what? Sidious openly admitted if Luke learned more of the Dark Side he could conquer even him, nevermind Vader. By RotJ he's stated as having the raw, actualized power that rivals Vader's:
"Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength."
-- Beware the Sith
He might not have had the mastery to abuse such power, but he's there. With his mastery confirmed as growing:
"As Han and Leia try to prevent the unraveling of the New Republic in the face of this fearful and inexplicable threat from the past, Luke sets out to track down the rogue pirate ships. To do so, he will team up with Mara Jade, with whom he will share his growing mastery of the Force and the ever-present threat of the dark side."
-- Specter Of the Past Publisher’s Summary
His skills with Jedi powers growing:
"Throgh the long years of struggle, Luke grew more and more adept in the skills of a Jedi.
-- Dark Empire Endnotes
And his overall strength in the Force growing:
"“You’ve grown very strong in the Force since last we met...“"
-- Dark Empire #2
I fail to see why he wouldn't objectively be better than Vader. Also, again, Sheev's words are far greater, which means Luke might be greater, just not by a vast extent.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I am well aware of this fact. It seems like all of you are the ones ignorant of such pretending that he wouldn't take into account his former abilities in an assessment of himself.
Because he wouldn't, and even if he did: he is biased against Anakin, thinking he was "weak" so he "killed him". So either Vader's subjective opinion doesn't include Anakin, or it does but in an unfavourable and factually incorrect manner.
Pick one. 👆