Originally posted by Beniboybling
No you didn't I'm afraid, you claimed that it can be interpreted in different ways but never substantiated on what basis. The source is pretty clear in referring to what Vader would or rather will be: weaker than before.
No it's not. It's referring to him as of ROTS. He WOULD have lost power as of ROTS
It's stretching the wording a bit to say that means He's lost power forever after
Unless you think there's no way Vader could improve now.
I'm not stretching anything lol, just saying that the source says. That Vader would be weaker than before, that extends beyond his present situation, it describes his future. Nowhere is it restricted to RotS, you shoehorned those contexts in. And considering that his body remained broken, why would that change?
Originally posted by Darth ThorHe lost the potential forever but that isn't saying he couldn't improve on his power throughout decades of practice. He was a shell of his former self and it's rather obvious watching his saber duels. He lost so much potential and mobility it's scary. Blame Kenobi for his cripple life.
No it's not. It's referring to him as of ROTS. He WOULD have lost power as of ROTSIt's stretching the wording a bit to say that means He's lost power forever after
Unless you think there's no way Vader could improve now.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not stretching anything lol, just saying that the source says. That Vader would be weaker than before, that extends beyond his present situation, it describes his future. Nowhere is it restricted to RotS, you shoehorned those contexts in. And considering that his body remained broken, why would that change?
Let's take a proper look at the quote shall we?
"Sidious knew that Vader's broken body would make him weaker than before, but tested his apprentice's connection to the dark side by telling him that he had caused Padme's death. The intensity of Vader's anguish and self hatred made it clear that he still possessed great power."
Piece by piece:
"Sidious knew that Vader's broken body would make him weaker than before,"
There's a clear before and after here. We all agree the "before" means before his injuries. But where's the after? Well the timeline of the panel is as of ROTS right after his injuries. So that is likely where the "after" is.
And the next bits confirm this:
"but tested his apprentice's connection to the dark side by telling him that he had caused Padme's death."
The fact that he tested his power, meant Palpatine had no idea how powerful Vader still was, let alone how powerful he could be 10-20 years from now.
"The intensity of Vader's anguish and self hatred made it clear that he still possessed great power."
He STILL had Great Power. When's it talking about? Right now, as in right after his injuries. He just tested this now, and just started smiling at how powerful he still is.
So how on Earth could Sidious have already known that he "would never" be as powerful as he was just a few hours ago, when he only just learned afterwards how powerful he is now after said "objective knowledge"?
My interpretation not only fits the wording perfectly, but also makes a lot more sense given the situation and the timeline of the panel concerning what Sidious could "Objectively" know. Unless you know something I don't concerning Vader never being capable of growing more powerful from then onwards.
@Thor
1. "Would" being the past participle of will, which expresses the future tense, situates Vader's weakness in the future as well as the present, as I've said multiple times now. The image in the panel non-withstanding. This is a simple matter of grammar.
2. Palpatine tested his power because he wanted to see if despite his weakness he could still be of use to him, the answer being that he could. Knowledge of exactly how powerful he was not being necessary to understand that his apprentice had been crippled.
3. Vader being capable of growing more powerful thereafter does not conflict with him remaining weaker than before.
I will admit that given an open ended nature of the statement no, it is not clear that Vader would be weaker than before "forever after". But certainly it confirms that his broken body fundamentally weakened him into his future, nor was it ever fixed. 👆
Originally posted by BeniboyblingI will admit that given an open ended nature of the statement no, it is not clear that Vader would be weaker than before "forever after". But certainly it confirms that his broken body fundamentally weakened him, nor was it ever fixed. 👆
This I agree with anyway. Given it's the reason he never overthrew Palpatine.
But how much his broken body effected him would be the determining factor to whether he would ever pass his ROTS self or not.
For instance, if his potential was reduced to Dooku or Kenobi level potential, then he never would be that powerful again.
However if his potential was only reduced to say Yoda (or perhaps even Windu) level potential then of course he could still in time surpass his former self.
But the only Objective fact that Sidious could have known (as far as I can see), is that as of ROTS Anakin/Vader would definitely be weaker post injury than pre-injury.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It states that their powers are focused and augmented in the Imperial Palace by the Emperor. One would assume that the Emperor's presence is what does that. If you'd like to venture an alternative explanation, by all means do so, but as of yet, that's the only plausible explanation I'm seeing. Regarding passiveness or activeness, the Emperor has a busy routine. He can't be continuously increasing people's powers through active effort. It's obviously passive.Vader's description in RotJ appears to resemble The Dark Side Sourcebook's analysis.
It's states that these acolytes powers were augmented within the Imperial palace by Sidious. Not that they were always being amped by him.
And a different person, who was weak, naive and killed by Vader. Unless Vader legitimately believes he's commited suicide and is a ghost then he thinks of Anakin as a different person.
Are you hearing what you're saying here?
You're contradicting yourself within the same sentence. I'm the one saying that he doesn't think of himself as a different person because he's not a schizophrenic. He can refer to himself in the third person and still assess his characteristics of the past.
The same nexus the Ones can draw from, darling. thumb up And the Prophecy he has is based on his potential/raw power anyways.
The nexus is created by the One's presence because they are the representations of the Force. Yes, and Anakin is not capable of utilizing that power off world.
Addressing the midsection of your post; Sidious said that Luke could be greater then his father and could be greater then him as well. While that's certainly true it doesn't make Luke at the time greater then either. Beware the Sith is a contradictory source. That means we either view it as a retcon or the source stating that Luke and Vader had an equal amount of raw power but not necessarily employable power. The latter makes more sense to me given their respective feats at the time.
Because he wouldn't, and even if he did: he is biased against Anakin, thinking he was "weak" so he "killed him". So either Vader's subjective opinion doesn't include Anakin, or it does but in an unfavourable and factually incorrect manner.
Pick one.
In your opinion he wouldn't. And no, Vader thought his former self was weak for being subject to the weaker side of the Force. That doesn't mean he wouldn't realize that he had possessed greater power at that point in his life.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Are you hearing what you're saying here?You're contradicting yourself within the same sentence. I'm the one saying that he doesn't think of himself as a different person because he's not a schizophrenic. He can refer to himself in the third person and still assess his characteristics of the past.
I'm using your logic, dear. Vader's either an idiot and thinks he himself is a ghost who commited suicide, or he removed his identity as Anakin Skywalker and considers himself a different person, which canonical statements and even Vader's own visions, dreams and personal statements suggest.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The nexus is created by the One's presence because they are the representations of the Force. Yes, and Anakin is not capable of utilizing that power off world.
Anakin wasn't capable of utilizing that power off-world because he's yet to meet his potential. Insider and the UK TCW Magazine practically note that Anakin's full potential rivals that of the Ones. He might not be their equal, but he's certainly not far behind them, whereas someone like Luke obviously is and Luke's innate talent carried him extremely well against Vader.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Addressing the midsection of your post; Sidious said that Luke could be greater then his father and could be greater then him as well. While that's certainly true it doesn't make Luke at the time greater then either. Beware the Sith is a contradictory source. That means we either view it as a retcon or the source stating that Luke and Vader had an equal amount of raw power but not necessarily employable power. The latter makes more sense to me given their respective feats at the time.
Again: Sidious said Luke can be far greater than his power meaning he might be superior, just not by a vast degree. This is basic English I'm speaking here, how do you not comprehend it?
Point of the matter is: Luke by Dark Empire has surpassed Vader and all the sources point to that. And Beware the Sith isn't a contrary source since nothing so far has noted that Vader is > RotJ Luke other than Luke's own opinion(and he thinks Ben Kenobi is > him and Sidious, so his opinion doesn't count for sh!t) and that was when Luke was barely conscious...
Their respective feats at the time? I don't recall RotJ Luke having any established limit, and he has some nice feats perking up in Vader's corner, especially by Dark Empire.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
In your opinion he wouldn't. And no, Vader thought his former self was weak for being subject to the weaker side of the Force. That doesn't mean he wouldn't realize that he had possessed greater power at that point in his life.
My opinion happens to be backed by canonical evidence; yours is backed by your own imagination. And Vader thought Anakin was weak because he's a Light Sider, yeah... So what does that have to do with anything? That doesn't counter my point, that just strengthens it: Vader's is blatantly bias against his former self, yet sources that hold more weight than his subjective opinion(Sidious, Fightsaber, StarWars.com, Fact File, Insider) all note one thing: Vader is inferior.
Consider this my last post to you on this topic; I don't have time to run in circles and drill something into a head as thick as yours. 👆
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He was weaker in regards to potential and perhaps overall after just being put into the suit but we know that's not the case as he adjusts to it.