Originally posted by DarthAnt66That doesn't mean Darth Vader is more powerful than peak ROTS Anakin Skywalker, just Obi-Wan-TK-matching Anakin Skywalker.
I don't think you realize that Darth Vader considers himself and Anakin Skywalker as completely different beings?
He wouldn't be considering Anakin Skywalker in this. [/B]
Only if you take the position that the quote references that version of Anakin specifically rather then in general...
You understand that he actually doesn't though? Like, he tries to forget about his past and remove himself from that time in his life but he's not going to ignore his previous capabilities when reassessing them later on. Like in Rise of Darth Vader just after he's put into his suit.
I really don't. If the quote is proven false then it can be disregarded. Anakin couldn't even see characters like Sidious or Vaapad amped Windu and while I don't think this means he couldn't react it certainly means he's slower then someone who could actively target Sidious like Yoda. Regardless we know that a hindered Anakin is far below someone like Yoda or Sidious given his performance against Obi Wan. Even if you take the quote literally then it's clear that its dependent on his state of mind.
It's not proven false.
It's stated in at least half-a-dozen sources that lightsaber fights are faster than the eye can seen, and that the opponents react via reflexes and the Force.
After Dooku had already been tired out beforehand and when Anakin's rage was ramping up.
What?
This is proved false by the text itself.
Where? Especially considering...
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Only if you take the position that the quote references that version of Anakin specifically rather then in general...You understand that he actually doesn't though? Like, he tries to forget about his past and remove himself from that time in his life but he's not going to ignore his previous capabilities when reassessing them later on. Like in Rise of Darth Vader just after he's put into his suit.
The last time he fought Obi-Wan Kenobi, he was notably weaker than usual. 😬
---
You do realize RotDV happens in, like, 18 BBY? Refer to ESB and ROTJ, and you'd find Darth Vader actively denies any relationship with Anakin. The notion he would change that for a lightsaber or Force analysis of himself is laughable.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66It's not proven false.
It's stated in at least half-a-dozen sources that lightsaber fights are faster than the eye can seen, and that the opponents react via reflexes and the Force.
What?
Where? Especially considering...
[/B]
It is. Actively targeting your opponent with ranged attacks like Yoda did indicates a higher reaction time then only barely being capable of seeing them fade in and out existence.
Faster then normal perceptions. We know from RotS people like Obi Wan and Anakin are capable of percieving sublight speed fighters.
After Dooku had already been tired out beforehand and when Anakin's rage was ramping up.
The quote you provided confirms that they weren't using their advanced forms but the text makes it clear that Anakin is actively trying to defeat Dooku even with these more basic forms and that he's growing frustrated at his failure to do so.
If you're asking where in the quote specifically it's where it's noting that Anakin is going in for the kill, charging Dooku while his back is turned and then growing frustrated at his lack of results.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It is. Actively targeting your opponent with ranged attacks like Yoda did indicates a higher reaction time then only barely being capable of seeing them fade in and out existence.Faster then normal perceptions. We know from RotS people like Obi Wan and Anakin are capable of percieving sublight speed fighters.
No, Jedi and Sith also don't perceive fights with their eyes.
For an example, to Yoda, Palpatine was a blur.
After Dooku had already been tired out beforehand and when Anakin's rage was ramping up.
Neither statements are true.
The quote you provided confirms that they weren't using their advanced forms but the text makes it clear that Anakin is actively trying to defeat Dooku even with these more basic forms and that he's growing frustrated at his failure to do so.
Where does the text state they were actively trying to best him?
If you're asking where in the quote specifically it's where it's noting that Anakin is going in for the kill, charging Dooku while his back is turned and then growing frustrated at his lack of results.
In a world where individuals have Danger Sense and Force Sense, that doesn't remotely suggest Anakin was working to kill Dooku to the extent he was dishing out all his powers to the fullest bar Djem So.
Fact of the matter is, while Anakin would have obviously aimed for killing Dooku here, he wasn't trying. It was sort of a "if he dies, that's great, but the foremost goal is to make Dooku think he's kicking our ass."
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not a position. It's saying Darth Vader is more powerful now than he was the last time he fought Obi-Wan Kenobi.The last time he fought Obi-Wan Kenobi, he was notably weaker than usual. 😬
---
You do realize RotDV happens in, like, 18 BBY? Refer to ESB and ROTJ, and you'd find Darth Vader actively denies any relationship with Anakin. The notion he would change that for a lightsaber or Force analysis of himself is laughable.
You're limiting the quote so that it applies solely to Mustafar Anakin when based on the other quotes regarding the fight we have we know it's most likely referring to Anakin in general. You take into account all the sources available when trying to interpret something Ant.
He says that Anakin Skywalker is dead because he's trying to get across that any hint of the Lighside or the man he once was is gone. He's not going to ignore that he was more powerful as Anakin when musing that his power is greater then it has ever been in his lifetime. :/
Originally posted by DarthAnt66Appeal to majority aside, I'm describing the premise for the "legends" banner since it's inception. The old EU becomes a body of "legends" which may or may not have happened, whereas Canon is what definitely happened. "There is some truth in legends", to quote Ahsoka, essentially meaning that the creators will take elements from the old EU they like, but canon is still the authority.
ILS, I hate to break the news, but I think you're the only one on board your crazy Legends/Canon relationship theory.
That's what Force & Destiny also mentions in the section regarding the exaggerated nature of many legends.
So, in essence, what you are saying is that something which definitely happened - Vader becoming more powerful than Anakin - should be put to the side in favour of your interpretation of things that might have happened.
I mean fair enough, discuss legends. But at least know how it works.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, Jedi and Sith also don't perceive fights with their eyes.For an example, to Yoda, Palpatine was a blur.
Neither statements are true.
[/b]
Where does the text state they were actively trying to best him?
[/b]
In a world where individuals have Danger Sense and Force Sense, that doesn't remotely suggest Anakin was working to kill Dooku to the extent he was dishing out all his powers to the fullest bar Djem So.
Fact of the matter is, while Anakin would have obviously aimed for killing Dooku here, he wasn't trying. It was sort of a "if he dies, that's great, but the foremost goal is to make Dooku think he's kicking our ass." [/B]
And perceiving Sidious as a blur is a far better reaction feat then viewing Sidious as fading in and out of existence.
And obviously they rely on precognition but as I just showed they also have much better visual perception then a standard non force user and would actively employ that in combat as well.
Except they are. They're both noted in the novel. One in a quote I've already provided you with.
Where it states Anakin was going in for the kill.
Of course he's trying otherwise he wouldn't be growing frustrated at his failure to press Dooku. Just because they're keeping their full capabilities hidden it doesn't mean they're holding back in any other way and in fact the opposite is indicated.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You're limiting the quote so that it applies solely to Mustafar Anakin when based on the other quotes regarding the fight we have we know it's most likely referring to Anakin in general. You take into account all the sources available when trying to interpret something Ant.
... what?
Have you even read the passage you're quoting?
It first has a paragraph about Mustafar Anakin vs Obi-Wan Kenobi, and then in the next paragraph discusses Vader vs Ben Kenobi.
That context isn't needed though, since the text is explicit that Vader grew far more powerful since specifically the last time the two fought.
He says that Anakin Skywalker is dead because he's trying to get across that any hint of the Lighside or the man he once was is gone. He's not going to ignore that he was more powerful as Anakin when musing that his power is greater then it has ever been in his lifetime. :/
Why wouldn't he? Why are you drawing the line specifically at combat abilities? Seems pretty amusing and arbitrary to me.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And perceiving Sidious as a blur is a far better reaction feat then viewing Sidious as fading in and out of existence.And obviously they rely on precognition but as I just showed they also have much better visual perception then a standard non force user and would actively employ that in combat as well.
Except they are. They're both noted in the novel. One in a quote I've already provided you with.
Where it states Anakin was going in for the kill.
Which isn't relevant, since the quotes I'm referring to state lightsaber fights take place faster than the combatants can see.
You do recognize the distinction between wanting to kill someone and giving your full, right?
Originally posted by ILS
Appeal to majority aside, I'm describing the premise for the "legends" banner since it's inception. The old EU becomes a body of "legends" which may or may not have happened, whereas Canon is what definitely happened. "There is some truth in legends", to quote Ahsoka, essentially meaning that the creators will take elements from the old EU they like, but canon is still the authority.That's what Force & Destiny also mentions in the section regarding the exaggerated nature of many legends.
So, in essence, what you are saying is that something which definitely happened - Vader becoming more powerful than Anakin - should be put to the side in favour of your interpretation of things that might have happened.
I mean fair enough, discuss legends. But at least know how it works.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
... what?Have you even read the passage you're quoting?
It first has a paragraph about Mustafar Anakin vs Obi-Wan Kenobi, and then in the next paragraph discusses Vader vs Ben Kenobi.
That context isn't needed though, since the text is explicit that Vader grew far more powerful since specifically the last time the two fought.
Why wouldn't he? Why are you drawing the line specifically at combat abilities? Seems pretty amusing and arbitrary to me. [/B]
Anakin wasn't less powerful on Mustafar. He was hindered certainly but his power wasn't diminished. Only less focused and uncontrolled. Regardless since another quote referencing the fight refers to general power taken in context we can understand this quote is likely referring to the incarnation rather then his specific state at the time.
Because there's no reason for him to pretend as if he never was Anakin when the only time he's ever denied a connection to his former self was to make a point to Luke that he would never again be able to return to the Lightside or be the man he once was.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Anakin wasn't less powerful on Mustafar. He was hindered certainly but his power wasn't diminished. Only less focused and uncontrolled. Regardless since another quote referencing the fight refers to general power taken in context we can understand this quote is likely referring to the incarnation rather then his specific state at the time.
No, he was demonstrably less powerful in his Force lock with Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Because there's no reason for him to pretend as if he never was Anakin when the only time he's ever denied a connection to his former self was to make a point to Luke that he would never again be able to return to the Lightside or be the man he once was.
No, that's not true. He denies any connection with Anakin Skywalker when talking to the Emperor.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's all hyperbole. The quotes both mean that they're moving fast. The text also states Fisto's blade was a blur to Anakin. Does that mean he can't see that too? 😂Which isn't relevant, since the quotes I'm referring to state lightsaber fights take place faster than the combatants can see.
You do recognize the distinction between wanting to kill someone and giving your full, right?
If that's the case why would Stover make a point to differentiate them like that? Vaapad amped Mace also saw Sidious as a blur and his senses would be elevated to Sidious's level at that point which would seem to indicate that Anakin is simply outclassed in this regard over characters like amped Windu and Yoda.
Quote?
If you're attempting to kill someone you're not going to be pulling punches except where it's specifically noted you are. Here it's Anakin and Obi Wan not using their main forms. I imagine if they could have beaten Dooku with these basic forms before switching to more advanced ones that would have suited them just fine.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
If that's the case why would Stover make a point to differentiate them like that? Vaapad amped Mace also saw Sidious as a blur and his senses would be elevated to Sidious's level at that point which would seem to indicate that Anakin is simply outclassed in this regard over characters like amped Windu and Yoda.
Contradictions like these might occur when comparing different works with different authors, but Stover isn't stupid or forgetful - you're reading into it too hard.
Quote?
"They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."
The perspective of this is the third-person limited narrator hovering over the perspective of Luke.
I'm assuming "the eye can follow" being Luke Skywalker's since it then states that "blows came out of nowhere" in reference to Caedus vs him.
If you're attempting to kill someone you're not going to be pulling punches.
That's exactly what he's doing though.
During the early stages of the fight, here are their goals (in order of importance):
1.) Lure Dooku into a false sense of confidence.
2.) Kill Dooku.
If the second one happens, that's great, but the first is far more important.