Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Vader

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, he was demonstrably less powerful in his Force lock with Obi-Wan Kenobi.

No, that's not true. He denies any connection with Anakin Skywalker when talking to the Emperor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnHdOhLVo14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBlw1gNWdg [/B]

His power was less focused. It doesn't mean it was diminished or had suddenly vanished. Just like Luke not being able to lift the X wing yet still having the raw power to defend against Vader's telekinesis. Simply because one lacks focus or concentration at the time it doesn't mean they don't possess that power.

The first is Vader denying that any former connections he had as Anakin matter to him now and the second was both a way for a big reveal to remain hidden and objectively Vader referring to himself in third person likely for the same reason he did so in the prior link you provided and his talk with Luke.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
His power was less focused. It doesn't mean it was diminished or had suddenly vanished. Just like Luke not being able to lift the X wing yet still having the raw power to defend against Vader's telekinesis. Simply because one lacks focus or concentration at the time it doesn't mean they don't possess that power.

The quote isn't suggesting Darth Vader has greater raw power than Anakin Skywalker - it's confirmed he doesn't.

The quote is stating that Darth Vader has greater power than Anakin Skywalker as of the Mustafar fight, which is true.

If Anakin Skywalker can't bring his raw power to bare, then his potential power is irrelevant.

What is relevant is what he can actually use as his power - and the amount he can use is inferior to what Darth Vader's can.

He was blatantly focused on overpowering Kenobi in the telekinetic lock, but was unable to do so, because his power was insufficient.

The first is Vader denying that any former connections he had as Anakin matter to him now and the second was both a way for a big reveal to remain hidden and objectively Vader referring to himself in third person likely for the same reason he did so in the prior link you provided and his talk with Luke.

🙄

"It intensified, momentarily, Vader's own sense of anguish - to his crimes, now, he added guilt at the imagined repugnance of his appearance. But then this brought him to mind of the way he used to look - striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once.

And this memory brought a wave of other memories with it. Memories of brotherhood, and home. His dear wife. The freedom of deep space. Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan, his friend ... and how that friendship had turned. Turned, he knew not how - but got injected, nonetheless, with some uncaring virulence that festered, until ... hold. These were memories he wanted none of, not now. Memories of molten lava, crawling up his back ... no.

This boy had pulled him from that pit - here, now, with this act. This boy was good."

The above confirms that the memories of his former life was suppressed by Darth Vader and not referenced until after he killed Palpatine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's clearly not what he's going for when he states within the same work that Anakin Skywalker might be more powerful than Yoda.

Contradictions like these might occur when comparing different works with different authors, but Stover isn't stupid or forgetful - you're reading into it too hard.

"They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."

The perspective of this is the third-person limited narrator hovering over the perspective of Luke.

[/b]

That's exactly what he's doing though.

During the early stages of the fight, here are their goals (in order of importance):

1.) Lure Dooku into a false sense of confidence.
2.) Kill Dooku

If the second one happens, that's great, but the first is far more important. [/B]

When it's made clear that Anakin is the most potentially powerful character in SW and when tapping into his rage begins to access it I'd think common sense would tell you that Stover is referencing what Anakin could become and not what he is. Especially when Sidious mentions that Anakin will become more powerful then either Yoda or himself which denotes that he is not more powerful then either one of them at this point in time.

And you're trying to come up with character motivations that make no sense to justify your position. In comparison I think noting that two Sidious tier opponents saw aforementioned character as a blur while Anakin was noted to have had viewed him with considerably more trouble when he is noted to be less then that level is entirely justifiable.

You understand that a third person description saying "faster then the eye can follow" is not going to be taking into account a third person omniscient force using viewer the fight? Similar to how a book might state "5 miles as the crow flies." Isn't going to be referencing a version of the bird that can move far faster then the objective comparison, an Earth crow.

The second is a step towards the goal of ultimately killing or capturing Dooku. If he can do that using a more basic form he will which is why the text notes he's actively attempting to do so.

Why are you guys assuming Dooku was exhausted in that fight?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
When it's made clear that Anakin is the most potentially powerful character in SW and when tapping into his rage begins to access it I'd think common sense would tell you that Stover is referencing what Anakin could become and not what he is. Especially when Sidious mentions that Anakin will become more powerful then either Yoda or himself which denotes that he is not more powerful then either one of them at this point in time.

No, because the context of most of Stover's quotes are Anakin Skywalker's current standing.

And you're trying to come up with character motivations that make no sense to justify your position. In comparison I think noting that two Sidious tier opponents saw aforementioned character as a blur while Anakin was noted to have had viewed him with considerably more trouble when he is noted to be less then that level is entirely justifiable.

It's not.

- Anakin Skywalker, despite them moving in and out of existence, could register with his eyes that it was a "Koran Jedi Master."

- Anakin Skywalker, despite them moving in and out of existence, could register with his eyes that it was a "Palpatine."

- Anakin Skywalker's eyes soon thereafter adjusted and saw them merely as blurs anyhow.

So, no. Anakin not only registered what was going on in the case of the moving in and out, but also saw them as blurs regardless.

There's no distinction between that and any other situation.

You understand that a third person description saying "faster then the eye can follow" is not going to be taking into account a third person omniscient force using viewer the fight? Similar to how a book might state "5 miles as the crow flies." Isn't going to be referencing a version of the bird that can move far faster then the objective comparison, an Earth crow.

... what? Not only is the narrator not omniscient, but it's referring to itself in the context of Luke Skywalker.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Why are you guys assuming Dooku was exhausted in that fight?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The quote isn't suggesting Darth Vader has greater raw power than Anakin Skywalker - it's confirmed he doesn't.

The quote is stating that Darth Vader has greater power than Anakin Skywalker as of the Mustafar fight, which is true.

If Anakin Skywalker can't bring his raw power to bare, then his potential power is irrelevant.

What is relevant is what he can actually use as his power - and the amount he can use is inferior to what Darth Vader's can.

He was blatantly focused on overpowering Kenobi in the telekinetic lock, but was unable to do so, because his power was insufficient.

🙄

"It intensified, momentarily, Vader's own sense of anguish - to his crimes, now, he added guilt at the imagined repugnance of his appearance. But then this brought him to mind of the way he used to look - striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once.

And this memory brought a wave of other memories with it. Memories of brotherhood, and home. His dear wife. The freedom of deep space. Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan, his friend ... and how that friendship had turned. Turned, he knew not how - but got injected, nonetheless, with some uncaring virulence that festered, until ... hold. These were memories he wanted none of, not now. Memories of molten lava, crawling up his back ... no.

This boy had pulled him from that pit - here, now, with this act. This boy was good."

The above confirms that the memories of his former life was suppressed by Darth Vader and not referenced until after he killed Palpatine. [/B]

It's confirmed he does. By both himself and third person sources.

Going by your interpretation. And even doing his power isn't going to magically vanish in that fight.

That's true but it doesn't mean his power is lesser or diminished then.

That's not what the quote says though. It's a simple statement of power. Not the power they were capable of using.

Because his focus was insufficient*

"Vader's own sense of anguish - to his crimes, now

He didn't suppress his memories. He gained a new perspective on them. Where before he had justified his actions and embraces his hatred he now realized it was just his bitterness, shame and sadness at what he had done.

Man, you're willing to go far to justify your bias. Saying that Vader pretended a part of his life never existed and then actively forced himself to undergo amnesia. Don't you ever take a look at your stances and get an undeniable urge to scoff at it like you do with most other people who express ridiculous notions?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Why are you guys assuming Dooku was exhausted in that fight?

Nobody said he was exhausted. It's noted that each of an enraged Anakin's blows is taking more energy then what it took for him to hurl Kenobi though meaning he's going to be exhausted.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Nobody said he was exhausted. It's noted that each of an enraged Anakin's blows is taking more energy then what it took for him to hurl Kenobi though meaning he's going to be exhausted.

It's confirmed he does. By both himself and third person sources.

Raw power is potential power. 😬

Going by your interpretation. And even doing his power isn't going to magically vanish in that fight.

That's true but it doesn't mean his power is lesser or diminished then.

His applicable power changes based off circumstance.

That's not what the quote says though. It's a simple statement of power. Not the power they were capable of using.

No, the quote is comparing Anakin Skywalker's power on Mustafar to Vader's on the Death Star.

Whereas Skywalker's power is diminished, Vader's is not.

"Vader's own sense of anguish - to his crimes, now

He didn't suppress his memories. He gained a new perspective on them. Where before he had justified his actions and embraces his hatred he now realized it was just his bitterness, shame and sadness at what he had done.

The "to his crimes" is still referring to him within his suit. Then the text states that recognizing the guilt of this "brought him to mind of the way he used to look - striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once." And with such came a wave of additional memories, etc.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Is this information coming from the novel?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, because the context of most of Stover's quotes are Anakin Skywalker's current standing.

It's not.

- Anakin Skywalker, despite them moving in and out of existence, could register with his eyes that it was a "Koran Jedi Master."

- Anakin Skywalker, despite them moving in and out of existence, could register with his eyes that it was a "Palpatine."

- Anakin Skywalker's eyes soon thereafter adjusted and saw them merely as blurs anyhow.

So, no. Anakin not only registered what was going on in the case of the moving in and out, but also saw them as blurs regardless.

There's no distinction between that and any other situation.

... what? Not only is the narrator not omniscient, but it's referring to itself in the context of Luke Skywalker.

And they're proven to be impossible by both character statements, novel descriptions of events and his showings.

Or maybe he knew it was Mace because he could see the purple afterimages and he knew the color of Mace's blade? Lmao.

Perhaps because only one combatant in that fight was a Sith and no one else wielded a red lightsabers? I mean, this is getting kind of sad. I shouldn't have to explain basic common sense to you.

Quote?

Read above. ^

Not at all. It makes a statement from a third person perspective and then notes that the blows came out of nowhere before switching to an action Luke made through his perspective.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Is this information coming from the novel?

Yes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If Anakin can force Dooku into exhaustion in a few attacks, then it's clear he's far stronger than him anyway.

An Anakin drawing on his rage.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
An enraged Anakin.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes.

And they're proven to be impossible by both character statements, novel descriptions of events and his showings.

That's not a rebuttal. 😬

If it was, debating would be pretty damn easy. 😂

Quote?

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?"

Not at all. It makes a statement from a third person perspective and then notes that the blows came out of nowhere before switching to an action Luke made through his perspective.

Clarify how this remotely addresses my point.

I assume it doesn't, but I have to grasp what you're reaching at first.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Isn't it also stated Dooku thought he was to be arrested? So it's possible Dooku wasn't give his all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Raw power is potential power. 😬

His applicable power changes based off circumstance.

No, the quote is comparing Anakin Skywalker's power on Mustafar to Vader's on the Death Star.

Whereas Skywalker's power is diminished, Vader's is not.

The "to his crimes" is still referring to him within his suit. Then the text states that recognizing the guilt of this "brought him to mind of the way he used to look - striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once." And with such came a wave of additional memories, etc. [/B]

You've just reversed positions. Previous you claimed that someone's raw or potential power is a source that a character is capable of drawing on in moments of focus or rage.

But not his power as a whole.

In your interpretation.

The difference being that the quote isn't referencing employable power but power in general.

Recalling the details of how you used to look doesn't indicate that you suppressed your memories.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, that was after Dooku stated he was going against protocol and would kill Skywalker.