Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke's illusion projection feat was next-level stuff. Granted, it was on a powerful nexus, Luke was in deep meditation, and it may have killed him, but I was really impressed by that.He also had other cool stuff like casually blowing up the hut and toying with Kylo in sabers.
This is pure speculation though and obviously not really something that can be taken to a debate. Luke's powers are shrouded in mystery and will probably forever be left open-to-debate.
Lol Sidious choked out someone vastly superior to Kylo Ren from across the galaxy on Coruscant. How is an illusion superior? Deceiving the eyes and the senses is childs play for the Force.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol Sidious choked out someone vastly superior to Kylo Ren from across the galaxy on Coruscant. How is an illusion superior? Deceiving the eyes and the senses is childs play for the Force.
No remark on Sidious( we don't have enough information on Luke yet, just one single movie), but this was a real force "projection". A far, far cry from mere telepathy. He wasn't deceiving the senses of anyone here, he was literally projecting a form of himself across the galaxy.
Nothing like it has ever been seen in the movies, or even close. It is unique. Don't be spoiled by the EU and take the more estoric force powers for granted. In fact, the projection could be solid or hollow at will. Obviously, it is something special.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
No remark on Sidious( we don't have enough information on Luke yet, just one single movie), but this was a real force "projection". A far, far cry from mere telepathy. He wasn't deceiving the senses of anyone here, he was literally projecting a form of himself across the galaxy.
Nah, it was an illusion, its why he was armed with his father's lightsaber and appeared ~10 years younger. It was clearly a reference to the very first lesson Obi-Wan gives Luke "your eyes can decieve you, don't trust them". Kylo's lightsaber couldn't touch him, neither could the weapons from the walker. The ability doesn't seem superior to what Sidious and Dooku did to Yoda on Morriband. And, for the record I believe Yoda projects himself to Ahsoka in rebels.
Nothing like it has ever been seen in the movies, or even close. It is unique. Don't be spoiled by the EU and take the more estoric force powers for granted. In fact, the projection could be solid or hollow at will. Obviously, it is something special.
Sidious and Dooku perform a pretty esoteric feat in TCWs finale. Using the force to move snow around or make someone feel that you are there are rather casual applications. Hell Kylo and Rey could feel each other physically and they are untrained newbies.
Originally posted by Psychotron
And she still put him on his ass. That's what I hate about this movie. All of it just focused on making the OT characters and Luke especially look bad so the new guys can shine.
yeah that only really happened because she grabbed a saber and he had none; this is why I say that it was impressive ish... he looked good and i imagined him doing that with a saber which again pissed me off because I wanted to see much more of that from Luke
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah, it was an illusion, its why he was armed with his father's lightsaber and appeared ~10 years younger. It was clearly a reference to the very first lesson Obi-Wan gives Luke "your eyes can decieve you, don't trust them". Kylo's lightsaber couldn't touch him, neither could the weapons from the walker. The ability doesn't seem superior to what Sidious and Dooku did to Yoda on Morriband. And, for the record I believe Yoda projects himself to Ahsoka in rebels.Sidious and Dooku perform a pretty esoteric feat in TCWs finale. Using the force to move snow around or make someone feel that you are there are rather casual applications. Hell Kylo and Rey could feel each other physically and they are untrained newbies.
If it was an illusion, then he pretty much Tp'ed the full armies of the Resistance and the FO. Because every single one saw it.
Which in of itself, makes it better than anything we've seen before.
What's more, Luke clearly could become solid, because his "ahem" physical contact with Leia is made blatant. What's more, the "golden dice" or whatever that Luke gave to Leia were part of his illusion too and alternated between solid and hollow to Kylo. He clearly could pick them up as if they were real, yet they vanish a few seconds later.
Also, I said movies. Because Luke's feats are limited to just one.
Sidious and Dooku used rituals to perform and they did it in conjunction with each other. And whatever they did, was similar to telepathy, not force projection, because they only affected the "mind" of Yoda.
Sidious used Dooku's powers, the darkness and power on Moraband itself, and Dooku's bond with Yoda, all in conjunction with his Sith knowledge to make it work.
The two aren't comparable at all.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
[B]If it was an illusion, then he pretty much Tp'ed the full armies of the Resistance and the FO. Because every single one saw it.
Okay? And Yoda was able to project images of the Grand Inquisitor to the Inquisitors at the Jedi Temple and it certainly didn't kill him. Mother Talzin projects herself across the galaxy numerous times throughout TCWs. Sure it's impressive, but it is hardly superior to other force feats we've seen to the extent it makes me think 'Luke is the most powerful Jedi in the mythos'.
Which in of itself, makes it better than anything we've seen before.
Sure, but it isn't anything monumental, and the feat is diminished by the fact that it killed him.
What's more, Luke clearly could become solid, because his "ahem" physical contact with Leia is made blatant. What's more, the "golden dice" or whatever that Luke gave to Leia were part of his illusion too and alternated between solid and hollow to Kylo. He clearly could pick them up as if they were real, yet they vanish a few seconds later.
As I said, untrained Kylo and Rey could make physical contact from across the galaxy. That's not impressive.
Also, I said movies. Because Luke's feats are limited to just one.
Okay. In the context of just the movies then sure its an impressive feat, but that's not saying much considering the movies veer away from the more esoteric applications of the force. That's more of a lack of exposure than a grand feat for Luke. And again it killed him
Sidious and Dooku used rituals to perform and they did it in conjunction with each other. And whatever they did, was similar to telepathy, not force projection, because they only affected the "mind" of Yoda.The two aren't comparable at all.
I think projection and telepathy are very similar applications of the Force. And unlike Luke's projection, Sidious and Dooku's ritual nearly killed Yoda.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Again I just watched the film in its entirety. Luke gets owned by young Kylo.
He let himself die so the Rebels could escape, he easily dodged his lightsaber strikes while straining from concentrating his illusion from planets away.
He would butcher Kylo if they fought straightup
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Okay? And Yoda was able to project images of the Grand Inquisitor to the Inquisitors at the Jedi Temple and it certainly didn't kill him. Mother Talzin projects herself across the galaxy numerous times throughout TCWs. Sure it's impressive, but it is hardly superior to other force feats we've seen to the extent it makes me think 'Luke is the most powerful Jedi in the mythos'.Sure, but it isn't anything monumental, and the feat is diminished by the fact that it killed him.
As I said, untrained Kylo and Rey could make physical contact from across the galaxy. That's not impressive.
Okay. In the context of just the movies then sure its an impressive feat, but that's not saying much considering the movies veer away from the more esoteric applications of the force. That's more of a lack of exposure than a grand feat for Luke. And again it killed him
I think projection and telepathy are very similar applications of the Force. And unlike Luke's projection, Sidious and Dooku's ritual nearly killed Yoda.
1. FFS, I said only the movies.
Why is that so special? Because Yoda is strained worse than Luke, in trying to lift a simple pillar.
Movies, show the characters at their absolute weakest forms. It has nothing to do with canon. Why? Because the very same Yoda suddenly has enough raw power to hold back a mountain( yeah, yeah, it is not Tk, but the force output is still monumental), Mace Windu is pushing around massive mining vehicles with the force, 3 year post TPM Obi Wan is yanking around huge airships through the air, and Maul is yanking around 20 m shuttles in the show.
Don't get me started on Rebels. Or what Vader does in LOTS. A lot weaker version of the Vader, who failed to retrieve a datacard from Rebels ten feet in front of him in the movie.
Clearly, there is a clear cut difference in power and portrayal when it comes to movies and when it comes to other canon content. Therefore, it is wise to limit it only to the movies.
2. The feat itself didn't kill him. He "chose" to vanish into the force of his "own accord". I have no idea why this is so difficult to understand. All the feat did was strain him.
We don't know the details of what "contact" they made. I'd advise you to wait till more information comes on the matter.
"Lack of exposure" isn't an argument. In general, if we have a feat unprecedented and completely unique, then the guy attributed to for the feat gets full credit.
3. Here are two options we have to consider:
a. It was a force projection, and a unique one, because it had the ability to become solid or hollow at will. That's "not" telepathy, or even close to it. It is far superior.
It is kind of like making a vessel invisible. You aren't affecting the minds of anyone, but actually affecting the photons( or whatever in SW) falling on that vessel to cloak it. Of course, Luke's version is a lot more than that.
And of course, for this case, the projection actually had to react to Kylo Ren( because it isn't in the "mind" here, it is for real) and dodge his strikes. Which kind of increases the impressiveness by a lot.
b. If you reject that notion, and assume that Luke's Tp is so advanced as to trick both Kylo and Leia so profoundly, then he basically Tp'ed everyone in the Resistance and the FO, both the armies present.
In any case, doing either of that across the galaxy, is easily one of, if not the best feat, in the "movies".
Originally posted by carthage
He let himself die so the Rebels could escape, he easily dodged his lightsaber strikes while straining from concentrating his illusion from planets away.He would butcher Kylo if they fought straightup
Oh I agree, I think Luke is solidly above Kylo Ren.
Originally posted by ares834
He is talking about when Kylo collapsed the hut. Still it's an "lol" worthy argument as well.
You are mistaking what I am saying. Kylo owning Luke isn't a feat for Kylo. Its a negative feat for Luke. People count it as a feat for Sidious choking out Dooku even though the Count was likely caught off guard. An untrained Jedi boy can see the future and use it to fly a pod racer and yet a fully trained Jedi Master cannot forsee a Padawan who sees his Master standing over him with his lightsaber drawn is going to retaliate.
Sidious or Yoda in the same situation would not have been KO'd like that. Which is the point of this entire argument. Canon Luke is a solid tier below Canon Palpatine. I'd put him at Ben Kenobi-level at the absolute best.
1. FFS, I said only the movies.Why is that so special? Because Yoda is strained worse than Luke, in trying to lift a simple pillar.
Movies, show the characters at their absolute weakest forms. It has nothing to do with canon. Why? Because the very same Yoda suddenly has enough raw power to hold back a mountain( yeah, yeah, it is not Tk, but the force output is still monumental), Mace Windu is pushing around massive mining vehicles with the force, 3 year post TPM Obi Wan is yanking around huge airships through the air, and Maul is yanking around 20 m shuttles in the show.
Don't get me started on Rebels. Or what Vader does in LOTS. A lot weaker version of the Vader, who failed to retrieve a datacard from Rebels ten feet in front of him in the movie.
Clearly, there is a clear cut difference in power and portrayal when it comes to movies and when it comes to other canon content. Therefore, it is wise to limit it only to the movies.
2. The feat itself didn't kill him. He "chose" to vanish into the force of his "own accord". I have no idea why this is so difficult to understand. All the feat did was strain him.
We don't know the details of what "contact" they made. I'd advise you to wait till more information comes on the matter.
"Lack of exposure" isn't an argument. In general, if we have a feat unprecedented and completely unique, then the guy attributed to for the feat gets full credit.
3. Here are two options we have to consider:
a. It was a force projection, and a unique one, because it had the ability to become solid or hollow at will. That's "not" telepathy, or even close to it. It is far superior.
It is kind of like making a vessel invisible. You aren't affecting the minds of anyone, but actually affecting the photons( or whatever in SW) falling on that vessel to cloak it. Of course, Luke's version is a lot more than that.
b. If you reject that notion, and assume that Luke's Tp is so advanced as to trick both Kylo and Leia so profoundly, then he basically Tp'ed everyone in the Resistance and the FO, both the armies present.
In any case, doing either of that across the galaxy, is easily one of, if not the best feat, in the "movies".
Yeah I have no interest in debating Movies only. You are in the Literature and EU section of the forums. You want to discuss movies only, you can go to the baren wasteland of the movies. And yea...it is because you pretty much are flaunting Luke's feat as 'teh greatest eva' and while it was cool and an impressive feat, its hardly enough to put him above the likes of Palpatine.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
You are mistaking what I am saying. Kylo owning Luke isn't a feat for Kylo. Its a negative feat for Luke. People count it as a feat for Sidious choking out Dooku even though the Count was likely caught off guard. An untrained Jedi boy can see the future and use it to fly a pod racer and yet a fully trained Jedi Master cannot forsee a Padawan who sees his Master standing over him with his lightsaber drawn is going to retaliate.Sidious or Yoda in the same situation would not have been KO'd like that. Which is the point of this entire argument. Canon Luke is a solid tier below Canon Palpatine. I'd put him at Ben Kenobi-level at the absolute best.
Why wouldn't they? Having several tons of rocks fall on top of you is going to knock you out.