Canon Luke vs Canon Palpatine

Originally posted by Lord Stark

Yeah I have no interest in debating Movies only. You are in the Literature and EU section of the forums. You want to discuss movies only, you can go to the baren wasteland of the movies. And yea...it is because you pretty much are flaunting Luke's feat as 'teh greatest eva' and while it was cool and an impressive feat, its hardly enough to put him above the likes of Palpatine.

I never compared Luke to Palpatine. You might have understood that if you weren't playing the lowballing game here. Perhaps you'd understand that we literally have almost nothing to compare with because in case you hadn't noticed, Luke's just got one movie. And for the weakling he's been portrayed to be, the singular feat he has is better than anything we've seen in the movies before. "That" is the only assertion I have made. No point getting sore here.

Also for the record, if that is an anti feat for Luke, then Maul has it a thousand times worse. Snoke has it ten thousand times worse. Yoda and Sidious? Palpatine in ROTJ? Perhaps the thousands of Jedi, most of whom failed to even react to a single bolt.

Let's not start a "spitting-on-Luke-for-the-bandwagon" here, because quite frankly, this is the most asinine lowballing attempt so far. Kylo was not only his padawan, but his nephew. Luke would have been massively conflicted even going into that room to kill him. There is no way a cheap shot on him in that state wouldn't have succeeded. For any of the above cases, even if they were distracted or conflicted( Maul was neither, Snoke too was neither and he utterly failed to sense an attack coming from Kylo, despite Kylo being his current student), Luke has it much worse, for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by ares834
Why wouldn't they? Having several tons of rocks fall on top of you is going to knock you out.

Sure if they got hit. But they never would get caught unawares by a bloodlusted Padawan. The very notion is absurd.

And yeah, considering all of current canon, Palpatine has this in the bag.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sure if they got hit. But they never would get caught unawares by a bloodlusted Padawan. The very notion is absurd.

Perhaps. But that’s less because of their power and more due to reverence of the characters. Someone like Anakin though has showing just as, if not more embarrassing, in the Clone Wars cartoons.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sure if they got hit. But they never would get caught unawares by a bloodlusted Padawan. The very notion is absurd.

Clouded he was, by doubt. By shame.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I never compared Luke to Palpatine. You might have understood that if you weren't playing the lowballing game here. Perhaps you'd understand that we literally have almost nothing to compare with because in case you hadn't noticed, Luke's just got one movie. And for the weakling he's been portrayed to be, the singular feat he has is better than anything we've seen in the movies before. "That" is the only assertion I have made. No point getting sore here.

We're in a Palpatine vs. Luke thread...in case you haven't noticed. Luke is powerful in his own right. I'm not spitting on him. But this thread is literally comparing him to the most powerful baddie in the mythos.

Also for the record, if that is an anti feat for Luke, then Maul has it a thousand times worse. Snoke has it ten thousand times worse. Yoda and Sidious? Palpatine in ROTJ? Perhaps the thousands of Jedi, most of whom failed to even react to a single bolt.

Yeah agreed on the first two points. Palpatine in ROTJ was blinded by his own rage + even then he still killed Vader. Vader's raw physical strength also did overpower him.

Let's not start a "spitting-on-Luke-for-the-bandwagon" here, because quite frankly, this is the most asinine lowballing attempt so far. Kylo was not only his padawan, but his nephew. Luke would have been massively conflicted even going into that room to kill him. There is no way a cheap shot on him in that state wouldn't have succeeded. For any of the above cases, even if they were distracted or conflicted( Maul was neither, Snoke too was neither and he utterly failed to sense an attack coming from Kylo, despite Kylo being his current student), Luke has it much worse, for obvious reasons.

And yet a massively conflicted Anakin still fought on par with one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history. I'd agree he's probably around Maul-level, but he lacks the gravitas of anyone higher than that. In terms of combat, he's solid council level. But we're posting in a thread comparing him to Palpatine. The bar is far higher.

Clouded he was, by doubt. By shame.

Yes, but Yoda clouded by the dark side, Anakin clouded by doubt and shame, and Mace Windu blinded by his love of the Republic all performed way better than Luke did. [

None of them were in the middle of trying to stop the fight though. A Jedi's mindset is super important and Luke was panicking, in a terrible mental state and not ready for anything.

Shit happens. Jedi are only human (or aliens). Ben acted decisively when Luke was anything but. It only takes that split second, even for Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of them were in the middle of trying to stop the fight though. A Jedi's mindset is super important and Luke was panicking, in a terrible mental state and not ready for anything.

Anakin literally just choked out his pregnant wife and before that was weeping. I think that's an even worse mental state than Luke was.

Shit happens. Jedi are only human (or aliens). Ben acted decisively when Luke was anything but. It only takes that split second, even for Jedi.

He failed, pretty monumentally. Yes shit happens, but frankly that showing is disqualifying for Luke being top tier. Now perhaps in the new EU he'll get some expanded feats to redeem him, but based on what we have he's nowhere near Sheev.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
We're in a Palpatine vs. Luke thread...in case you haven't noticed. Luke is powerful in his own right. I'm not spitting on him. But this thread is literally comparing him to the most powerful baddie in the mythos.

Yeah agreed on the first two points. Palpatine in ROTJ was blinded by his own rage + even then he still killed Vader. Vader's raw physical strength also did overpower him.

And yet a massively conflicted Anakin still fought on par with one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history. I'd agree he's probably around Maul-level, but he lacks the gravitas of anyone higher than that. In terms of combat, he's solid council level. But we're posting in a thread comparing him to Palpatine. The bar is far higher.

Yes, but Yoda clouded by the dark side, Anakin clouded by doubt and shame, and Mace Windu blinded by his love of the Republic all performed way better than Luke did. [

Sure. As of now, Palpatine>Luke in canon. Unless Luke gets some pretty good feats.

But not because of this.

If you agree with those points, then all you have to do is realize that what Kylo pulled was essentially a cheap-shot. The situation is same as what Vader did to Sidious, and the excuses are the same, if not worse for Luke. The difference being that many tons of rock instantly buried him before he could do anything about it.

Passively sensing, and actively fighting are two different things. The same Anakin failed to sense his master at all, who he has intricate bonds with, standing just feet away, yet we are not going to claim that his power in the force is lesser than that of a padawan are we? Also not relevant, but Anakin wasn't "conflicted" as such. He was just too absorbed in his own rage and anger, like Palpatine was in ROTJ.

Luke's passive senses had to work for him to prevent Kylo's attack. Because he was hugely conflicted, they didn't.

Getting cheap-shotted isn't really an anti feat, because it is scattered throughout SW like sand in a desert. If we go into Legends, Krayt comes to mind immediately, who also, has no excuse. And this is the guy who was supposed to be GM Luke's( the most powerful force user in SW, aside from the entities) antithesis on the throne of balance, and who fought Abeloth with a level of performance not far off from Luke's own.

Comparing to Maul is just unfair. In terms of the force, he is inferior to no one aside from Yoda/Sidious as of now. In terms of dueling, well, that is a grey area. I probably have a worse opinion than you about that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of them were in the middle of trying to stop the fight though. A Jedi's mindset is super important and Luke was panicking, in a terrible mental state and not ready for anything.

Shit happens. Jedi are only human (or aliens). Ben acted decisively when Luke was anything but. It only takes that split second, even for Jedi.

👆

Well said.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Sure. As of now, Palpatine>Luke in canon. Unless Luke gets some pretty good feats.

But not because of this.

If you agree with those points, then all you have to do is realize that what Kylo pulled was essentially a cheap-shot. The situation is same as what Vader did to Sidious, and the excuses are the same, if not worse for Luke. The difference being that many tons of rock instantly buried him before he could do anything about it.

Passively sensing, and actively fighting are two different things. The same Anakin failed to sense his master at all, who he has intricate bonds with, standing just feet away, yet we are not going to claim that his power in the force is lesser than that of a padawan are we? Also not relevant, but Anakin wasn't "conflicted" as such. He was just too absorbed in his own rage and anger, like Palpatine was in ROTJ.

Luke's passive senses had to work for him to prevent Kylo's attack. Because he was hugely conflicted, they didn't.

Getting cheap-shotted isn't really an anti feat, because it is scattered throughout SW like sand in a desert. If we go into Legends, Krayt comes to mind immediately, who also, has no excuse.

Comparing to Maul is just unfair. In terms of the force, he is inferior to no one aside from Yoda/Sidious as of now. In terms of dueling, well, that is a grey area. I probably have a worse opinion than you about that.

Yeah, you all keep formulating this strawman that I'm trying to say Luke is inferior to a padawan. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying Luke getting caught off guard by a Padawan in conjunction with his lack of real showings is disqualifying for him to be even remotely comparable to Sidious. If Old Master Maul's only real combat feats in Rebels were getting wrecked by Kanan and then dying of exhaustion after projecting himself in a duel on Tatooine with Kenobi no one would be attempting to argue he's even remotely comparable to Darth Sidious. Because it's ridiculous. That's literally all I've been arguing this whole time.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Anakin literally just choked out his pregnant wife and before that was weeping. I think that's an even worse mental state than Luke was.

But Obi-Wan was right in front of him and he was ready for the fight. The Luke-Ben thing happened in a second. Luke didn't get a chance to finish his sentence let alone react.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He failed, pretty monumentally. Yes shit happens, but frankly that showing is disqualifying for Luke being top tier. Now perhaps in the new EU he'll get some expanded feats to redeem him, but based on what we have he's nowhere near Sheev.

No, not really. Even the best can be sucker-punched. Its not nearly as bad as Sheev and Yoda acting with total surprise when their counterparts slowly stood up, raised their hands and attacked them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But Obi-Wan was right in front of him and he was ready for the fight. The Luke-Ben thing happened in a second. Luke didn't get a chance to finish his sentence let alone react.

That's not true. Luke reacted to the saber attack.

No, not really. Even the best can be sucker-punched. Its not nearly as bad as Sheev and Yoda acting with total surprise when their counterparts slowly stood up, raised their hands and attacked them.

Yes, it is. Getting caught off guard by Yoda or Sidious makes sense because they are both immensely powerful individuals with decades-centuries of mastery in their belt. Their defenses being temporarily blitzed or overwhelmed by someone of that stature is believable and expected. Ben Solo was an untrained Padawan, Luke is a Jedi Master. Its a non-comparison.

Lol, "blitzed". Sidious slowly raised his hands while saying "I'm going to get yoooou!" and Yoda was completely surprised when he actually did attack him.

It was truly pathetic. Luke just got sucker-punched from behind in a moment of indecisiveness.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, "blitzed". Sidious slowly raised his hands while saying "I'm going to get yoooou!" and Yoda was completely surprised when he actually did attack him.

It was truly pathetic. Luke just got sucker-punched from behind in a moment of indecisiveness.

It was lightning from Darth Sidious. Nothing pathetic about getting tagged by that.

Being surprised when a Sith slowly monologues about how hes about to attack you, slowly raises his hands, fingers splayed, pauses for like a full second and then shoots lightning at you is pathetic, yes.

Even Maul would struggle to job like that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being surprised when a Sith slowly monologues about how hes about to attack you, slowly raises his hands, fingers splayed, pauses for like a full second and then shoots lightning at you is pathetic, yes.

Lol yeah, I'm done with this false equivalency. Yes Dooku did the same thing with "even you" and Yoda easily reacted to a redirected it. Yoda underestimated the speed and strength of Sidious' lightning and was temporarily overpower.

It's retarded to compare getting hit by the most powerful Sith in history at the height of the galaxy being clouded in darkness and getting owned by a Padawan.

Sidious effortlessly struck down two Masters with his saber skills even though they had their weapons drawn and saying "its treason then" and screaming "AHHHHHHH!". That doesn't reflect poorly on those masters because its Darth ****ing Sidious. If it was half trained Ben Solo or say AOTCs Anakin it'd be ****ing pathetic.

At the same time I feel like its retarded to say a blatantly telegraphed attack like that while the characters are staring right at each other with plenty of time to react is ok but a split-second of hesitation while panicking and trying to explain yourself isn't.

Saying "Sidious is super powerfuls so that makes his zaps go fast" is idiotic as a defense. Nothing in the movie (or anywhere) indicates thats the case, its just an excuse you came up with afterwards. Its a terribly shot sequence and isn't excusable. And what does the galaxy being clouded have to do with anything? He's staring right at him! He can see him raising his ****ing hands! He doesn't need to sense anything, he has eyes!

That scene was also terrible, because if you don't assume he's moving super-fast even though he isn't visually, it just looks like those Jedi were literal invalids instead of badass duelists like they were supposed to be. But at least you can assume that, unlike the Yoda scene thats just inexcusable.

The reason Luke-Ben works is because anyone can understand why it happened like that and its completely plausible. You don't need to assume the camera is lying to you. The RotS Sidious stuff was awful in every way.

Originally posted by Psychotron
I know that's why it happened. What pisses me off is that Johnson wrote that scene in that way specifically so Rey can talk down to Luke. It's insulting.

agreed

Originally posted by Nephthys
At the same time I feel like its retarded to say a blatantly telegraphed attack like that while the characters are staring right at each other with plenty of time to react is ok but a split-second of hesitation while panicking and trying to explain yourself isn't.

Saying "Sidious is super powerfuls so that makes his zaps go fast" is idiotic as a defense. Nothing in the movie (or anywhere) indicates thats the case, its just an excuse you came up with afterwards. Its a terribly shot sequence and isn't excusable. And what does the galaxy being clouded have to do with anything? He's staring right at him! He can see him raising his ****ing hands! He doesn't need to sense anything, he has eyes!

It's not idiotic numbnuts. We see Dooku does the same thing to Yoda in AOTCs (he attempts to one-shot him with lighting) And he is able to react to it and block it. And Lucas makes a strong effort to show that Sidious' lighting is faster and stronger than Dooku's. And yeah if I see someone raising a gun to my face that doesn't mean I can react to it.

That scene was also terrible, because if you don't assume he's moving super-fast even though he isn't visually, it just looks like those Jedi were literal invalids instead of badass duelists like they were supposed to be. But at least you can assume that, unlike the Yoda scene thats just inexcusable.

The reason Luke-Ben works is because anyone can understand why it happened like that and its completely plausible. You don't need to assume the camera is lying to you. The RotS Sidious stuff was awful in every way. [/B]

Lol you apparently need DCU-tier cgi to comprehend that Sidious was simply moving faster. Its not my fault you lack the comprehension to understand the other scene. And I'm not saying it isn't plausible. I'm saying it would not happen to the likes of Sidious and Yoda.