Originally posted by -Pr-
By what metric are you measuring combat speed?Because by the forum's definition, there's a lot more than 3.
This is one listed as a combat feat. It’s flight speed and no combat.
https://i.imgur.com/PXyMepG_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Originally posted by TheHulkster
Under the section entitled combat feats, there are actually 3 non-flight speed combat feats. One flurry on Mongul and 2 on probes. All similar to the one shown above against Equus.
Something on that order.
Originally posted by -Pr-
By what metric are you measuring combat speed?Because by the forum's definition, there's a lot more than 3.
I compare their abilities to attack and defend.
I simply look at how much attacks and defences are done per panel, or whatever the narration says on the matter.
I look at how easily they re-position themselves too.
I separate the combat manoeuvres too, for example if a character can fly or run fast into another, I just look at how he do that:
If a character is able to rush another at 800 mph, that means he can charge his opponents at 800 mph.
Simple and effective.
I think that the most important point is to keep each combat manoeuvres separated to clarify the posts.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Something on that order.I compare their abilities to attack and defend.
I simply look at how much attacks and defences are done per panel, or whatever the narration says on the matter.
I look at how easily they re-position themselves too.
I separate the combat manoeuvres too, for example if a character can fly or run fast into another, I just look at how he do that:
If a character is able to rush another at 800 mph, that means he can charge his opponents at 800 mph.
Simple and effective.
I think that the most important point is to keep each combat manoeuvres separated to clarify the posts.
Do you agree that Superman has very fast perceptions? Meaning, he can see things moving very slowly or almost at a halt?
If so then how would you explain the times he wasn’t using those perceptions in combat?
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Something on that order.I compare their abilities to attack and defend.
I simply look at how much attacks and defences are done per panel, or whatever the narration says on the matter.
I look at how easily they re-position themselves too.
I separate the combat manoeuvres too, for example if a character can fly or run fast into another, I just look at how he do that:
If a character is able to rush another at 800 mph, that means he can charge his opponents at 800 mph.
Simple and effective.
I think that the most important point is to keep each combat manoeuvres separated to clarify the posts.
Do you agree that Superman has very fast perceptions? Meaning, he can see things moving very slowly or almost at a halt?
If so then how would you explain the times he wasn’t using those perceptions in combat?
Lastly, Superman’s speed (movement, thinking, perceptions) has been compared to flash (by D.C.) since their beginning.
Originally posted by h1a8
Do you agree that Superman has very fast perceptions? Meaning, he can see things moving very slowly or almost at a halt?If so then how would you explain the times he wasn’t using those perceptions in combat?
Lastly, Superman’s speed (movement, thinking, perceptions) has been compared to flash (by D.C.) since their beginning.
Nothing about that matters.
Only the combat showings matters.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
This is one listed as a combat feat. It’s flight speed and no combat.https://i.imgur.com/PXyMepG_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Well that one is obviously wrong. I went through the list I sent you though, and I counted at least a dozen distinct instances of combat/reflex speed.
So to flip things around, let me ask you this: How fast (or slow) do you think Superman is?
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Something on that order.I compare their abilities to attack and defend.
I simply look at how much attacks and defences are done per panel, or whatever the narration says on the matter.
I look at how easily they re-position themselves too.
I separate the combat manoeuvres too, for example if a character can fly or run fast into another, I just look at how he do that:
If a character is able to rush another at 800 mph, that means he can charge his opponents at 800 mph.
Simple and effective.
I think that the most important point is to keep each combat manoeuvres separated to clarify the posts.
Same question to you.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Nothing about that matters.Only the combat showings matters.
It isn't only feats during fights that matter. There are other instances during which to gauge combat/reflex speed.
Originally posted by -Pr-How fast (or slow) do you think Superman is?
Slower than Shadowdragon.
It isn't only feats during fights that matter. There are other instances during which to gauge combat/reflex speed.
They aren't necessarily applicable to combat either.
For example Alain Prost has awesome reflexes when it comes to driving but if he had to fight someone, his reflexes as a driver would be useless because that's not the same task.
There is no correlation between driving and fighting therefore you cannot apply the feats of one to the other.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Slower than Shadowdragon.They aren't necessarily applicable to combat either.
For example Alain Prost has awesome reflexes when it comes to driving but if he had to fight someone, his reflexes as a driver would be useless because that's not the same task.
There is no correlation between driving and fighting therefore you cannot apply the feats of one to the other.
Superman is a trained fighter. He's shown that he has the ability to move and perform complex tasks at speed. Ergo, he can perform fighting moves at speed because he's trained in the use of his speed AND in the use of fighting techniques.
The comics support this. Hell, even shitty media like Smallville supports it.
Originally posted by RealityWarper👆
Slower than Shadowdragon.They aren't necessarily applicable to combat either.
For example Alain Prost has awesome reflexes when it comes to driving but if he had to fight someone, his reflexes as a driver would be useless because that's not the same task.
There is no correlation between driving and fighting therefore you cannot apply the feats of one to the other.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman is a trained fighter. He's shown that he has the ability to move and perform complex tasks at speed. Ergo, he can perform fighting moves at speed because he's trained in the use of his speed AND in the use of fighting techniques.The comics support this. Hell, even shitty media like Smallville supports it.
When does the comic support this exactly ?
We come back at context and statistics again.
I have been through almost all of Superman's appearances and the large majority of the time he is a punching bag, like more than 99% of them.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
When does the comic support this exactly ?We come back at context and statistics again.
I have been through almost all of Superman's appearances and the large majority of the time he is a punching bag, like more than 99% of them.
What are you arguing, exactly? That him being hit by people slower than him removes his stated super-speed reactions? Speed he's been stated to have multiple times, and SHOWN multiple times?
Originally posted by -Pr-
What are you arguing, exactly? That him being hit by people slower than him removes his stated super-speed reactions? Speed he's been stated to have multiple times, and SHOWN multiple times?
I mean that they aren't "slower than him" when it comes to combat techniques.
He runs and fly faster but that's not a factor when it comes to trade blows.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Well that one is obviously wrong. I went through the list I sent you though, and I counted at least a dozen distinct instances of combat/reflex speed.So to flip things around, let me ask you this: How fast (or slow) do you think Superman is?
Same question to you.
It isn't only feats during fights that matter. There are other instances during which to gauge combat/reflex speed.
I’m only counting non-flight combat speed. Non-flight speed/reflex showings don’t necessarily translate to fight/speed reflexes. That’s why a table tennis champion will not punch as fast as Floyd Mayweather. There is one with him blocking Diana’s sword repeatedly but that fits along with Thor twirling his hammer at light speed or blocking bullets. Or this:
https://i.imgur.com/UETnuCX_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Superman has superspeed capabilities, but the rare use of them logically dictates that he has some type of restriction in using them the way his battle board supporters desire. Same for characters similar to him in power who don’t hold back. Saying that he “forgets” to use it makes him seem dumb which is out of character. Saying he holds back makes no sense. Holding back doesn’t keep you from ducking and evil versions of him likewise use such speed rarely and we know they don’t hold back.
What this restriction is is up for speculation. Dwaine McDuffie attempted to explain it somewhat. Ultimately we can just say “comic books”. That’s how they work and that’s what defines the character.
How does this feat translate for Hulk?
Originally posted by TheHulkster
I’m only counting non-flight combat speed. Non-flight speed/reflex showings don’t necessarily translate to fight/speed reflexes. That’s why a table tennis champion will not punch as fast as Floyd Mayweather. There is one with him blocking Diana’s sword repeatedly but that fits along with Thor twirling his hammer at light speed or blocking bullets. Or this:https://i.imgur.com/UETnuCX_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Superman has superspeed capabilities, but the rare use of them logically dictates that he has some type of restriction in using them the way his battle board supporters desire. Same for characters similar to him in power who don’t hold back. Saying that he “forgets” to use it makes him seem dumb which is out of character. Saying he holds back makes no sense. Holding back doesn’t keep you from ducking and evil versions of him likewise use such speed rarely and we know they don’t hold back.
What this restriction is is up for speculation. Dwaine McDuffie attempted to explain it somewhat. Ultimately we can just say “comic books”. That’s how they work and that’s what defines the character.
How does this feat translate for Hulk?
I mean, I laid it out in steps, and no-one answered it satsifactorily:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆 why doesn't Superman speedblitz?1. He has no superspeed.
2. He is stupid and has superspeed, but doesn't use it
3. He has it, but loves getting punched
4. He has it, but plot dictates a sexy fight, where the hero struggles and gets tagged.We know 1 isn't true. 2? He's a top rate investigative reporter, of the House of El, a famous scientific family from one of the most advanced civilisations in the DCU. 3? Maybe...
Or, it's 4.
Hulkster, you obviously don't think it's 1 - Fair enough, that already puts you on top, lol. You don't think it's 2. OK. 3 or 4 is what is left to you.
And I would like to see scans of Superman loving his beatdown at Doomsday's hands.
'Harder, daddy!'
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, I laid it out in steps, and no-one answered it satsifactorily:Hulkster, you obviously don't think it's 1 - Fair enough, that already puts you on top, lol. You don't think it's 2. OK. 3 or 4 is what is left to you.
And I would like to see scans of Superman loving his beatdown at Doomsday's hands.
'Harder, daddy!'
I tweaked number 4:
4. He has it, but characterization dictates sexy fights, where the hero struggles and gets tagged.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
I’m only counting non-flight combat speed. Non-flight speed/reflex showings don’t necessarily translate to fight/speed reflexes. That’s why a table tennis champion will not punch as fast as Floyd Mayweather. There is one with him blocking Diana’s sword repeatedly but that fits along with Thor twirling his hammer at light speed or blocking bullets. Or this:https://i.imgur.com/UETnuCX_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Superman has superspeed capabilities, but the rare use of them logically dictates that he has some type of restriction in using them the way his battle board supporters desire. Same for characters similar to him in power who don’t hold back. Saying that he “forgets” to use it makes him seem dumb which is out of character. Saying he holds back makes no sense. Holding back doesn’t keep you from ducking and evil versions of him likewise use such speed rarely and we know they don’t hold back.
What this restriction is is up for speculation. Dwaine McDuffie attempted to explain it somewhat. Ultimately we can just say “comic books”. That’s how they work and that’s what defines the character.
How does this feat translate for Hulk?
About the Hulk feat, he is simply giving more centifugal force with his strength.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
I tweaked number 4:4. He has it, but characterization dictates sexy fights, where the hero struggles and gets tagged.
5. He has less quick in hand-to-hand than trained street-levelers like Shadowdragon because he is untrained.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
I tweaked number 4:4. He has it, but characterization dictates sexy fights, where the hero struggles and gets tagged.
So in character, Superman likes to struggle and get tagged? Because he wants to make fights look sexy and stylish?
That is a very far reach. He's not Booster Gold, or Longshot, doing things for ratings, lol.
CIP, fair enough. CIS? You yourself said, being dumb was out of character.
