Thanos Vs Superman, Captain Marvel & Wonder Woman

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So in character, Superman likes to struggle and get tagged? Because he wants to make fights look sexy and stylish?

That is a very far reach. He's not Booster Gold, or Longshot, doing things for ratings, lol.

CIP, fair enough. CIS? You yourself said, being dumb was out of character.

Nah, in character Superman feels, or believes that he has enough natural body armor. He worries less about being tagged than let's say Batman who must think about his safety and avoid the impact. I've mentioned this several times already. Superman goes into fights with the knowledge, or belief that he can take it, or at least bang out with whomever is standing in front him. It's as if he were betting that they will fall before he does. And why not? He can fly through stars with little to no injury, take nuke strikes, etc. This happened when the JL took on Konvikt.

Originally posted by Stoic
Nah, in character Superman feels, or believes that he has enough natural body armor. He worries less about being tagged than let's say Batman who must think about his safety and avoid the impact. I've mentioned this several times already. Superman goes into fights with the knowledge, or belief that he can take it, or at least bang out with whomever is standing in front him. It's as if he were betting that they will fall before he does. And why not? He can fly through stars with little to no injury, take nuke strikes, etc. This happened when the JL took on Konvikt.

Perfect.

So how about his opponents?

Hulk? Is he some no-name 2-bit villain who no one has ever heard of?

Thor? Some nobody who no-one knows?

In THIS thread..

Thanos?

Does Superman see Doomsday and think, 'oh gee, I better let this guy tag me!'?

No, he gets stuck in with his powers.

Let's say he doesn't get any knowledge, or for some reason, nobody knows of the Hulk or Thanos, lol.

They tag him - do they OHKO him? Kill him?

If no.....what do you think he then does? 'Oh gee, that green guy hit me really hard - I certainly felt that! Now, I better keep getting hit! Feels so good!'

Uh-huh.

I mean, I know crossovers aren't valid, but essentially this:

https://lowbrowcomics.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/dcvsmarvel_03_29.jpg

Superman will figure out straight away that he's a pretty tough customer.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Perfect.

So how about his opponents?

Hulk? Is he some no-name 2-bit villain who no one has ever heard of?

Thor? Some nobody who no-one knows?

In THIS thread..

Thanos?

Does Superman see Doomsday and think, 'oh gee, I better let this guy tag me!'?

No, he gets stuck in with his powers.

Let's say he doesn't get any knowledge, or for some reason, nobody knows of the Hulk or Thanos, lol.

They tag him - do they OHKO him? Kill him?

If no.....what do you think he then does? 'Oh gee, that green guy hit me really hard - I certainly felt that! Now, I better keep getting hit! Feels so good!'

Uh-huh.

I mean, I know crossovers aren't valid, but essentially this:

https://lowbrowcomics.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/dcvsmarvel_03_29.jpg

Superman will figure out straight away that he's a pretty tough customer.

He would fight Thanos similarly to the way that he would fight Darkseid. He would have respect for them, but he wouldn't immediately go to evasive maneuvers at the sound of the gong. We can't see these fights as if these characters were old rivals, but that they are meeting for the very first time, regardless of the scope of their power to an extent. Key word here being Extent. Superman has never tasted a blow from Thanos and vice versa, etc.

Originally posted by Stoic
He would fight Thanos similarly to the way that he would fight Darkseid. He would have respect for them, but he wouldn't immediately go to evasive maneuvers at the sound of the gong. We can't see these fights as if these characters were old rivals, but that they are meeting for the very first time, regardless of the scope of their power to an extent. Key word here being Extent. Superman has never tasted a blow from Thanos and vice versa, etc.

Exactly.

So he knows Thanos, this incredibly powerful being famous through not just Earth, but the entire cosmos. A worshipper of Death, the most feared and dangerous being in the universe.

ASSUMING he doesn't then go 'hmm, I better be careful and not get tagged', he'll get....tagged. Would he be OHKO? If not.....

What happens AFTER he has tasted a blow from Thanos, the most feared and dangerous being in the universe?

'Oh, better taste another blow!!!'

You see what I am getting at?

Edit: your argument is essentially - Superman+WW+Marvel knows Thanos, knows what he's capable of, gets tagged, and STILL don't then start using evasion tactics.

Or worse, WW/Marvel will see Superman getting tagged, getting staggered (or OHKO, depending on what you believe), and them going...hmm, yes, we shall do the same!

As I said. Supes/DS is a fight for comics. Ignoring their character AND powers is fundamentally unsound.

You're basically reducing them to idiots. 'We're facing a universal threat - better go in and take some hits! Oh no, we're hit! Better keep going!'

Originally posted by RealityWarper
I mean that they aren't "slower than him" when it comes to combat techniques.

He runs and fly faster but that's not a factor when it comes to trade blows.

Except for the times when it has been?

It's a really shaky standard you're applying here, imo. People like Wonder Woman and the Flash get tagged plenty too, but we don't say those enemies are as fast as them?

Why is Superman different? Because he gets hit more? That just means you're arguing powerset and leaving out personality, then. We know he's more often than not a brawler. We know that he will legitimately take a punch for no other reason than it's better that he does it than nobody else.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
I’m only counting non-flight combat speed. Non-flight speed/reflex showings don’t necessarily translate to fight/speed reflexes. That’s why a table tennis champion will not punch as fast as Floyd Mayweather. There is one with him blocking Diana’s sword repeatedly but that fits along with Thor twirling his hammer at light speed or blocking bullets. Or this:

https://i.imgur.com/UETnuCX_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Superman has superspeed capabilities, but the rare use of them logically dictates that he has some type of restriction in using them the way his battle board supporters desire. Same for characters similar to him in power who don’t hold back. Saying that he “forgets” to use it makes him seem dumb which is out of character. Saying he holds back makes no sense. Holding back doesn’t keep you from ducking and evil versions of him likewise use such speed rarely and we know they don’t hold back.

What this restriction is is up for speculation. Dwaine McDuffie attempted to explain it somewhat. Ultimately we can just say “comic books”. That’s how they work and that’s what defines the character.

How does this feat translate for Hulk?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/3702075-76-674924-hulksuperspeedbj7.jpg

Not to be short with you here, but no, that's not true. A person with quick reflexes AND training, will more often than not be able to transfer said reflexes over. Sensory input is sensory input. If you can react to one thing at speed, then with the proper training (which Superman has), then there's no reason why you can't react to other things.

Using the McDuffie example won't end well, to be fair.

==

TBH, at this point I'm just going to leave it, and as much as it might seem rude, I'm going to apologise for it. It's just that I've had this same conversation dozens of times now, over a rule I never even wrote in the first place.

The PIS ruling accounts for the needs of the plot. It accounts for why people like Flash and Superman (yes, Superman), get hit even when they could get out of the way. And that's without getting in to the personality stuff.

If a person has a personal standard that says that Superman doesn't have combat speed, then good for them. From the POV of this board AND DC Comics, though? He has, and has used, fast reflexes before to perform a multitude of tasks, including fighting.

The PIS and personality rules account for people with super speed getting tagged when they shouldn't. Whether it's Superman, Wally West, Surfer, Gladiator or anyone else, it's covered.

==

Also, singling out Superman also comes across as really disingenuous. Like, really.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Exactly.

So he knows Thanos, this incredibly powerful being famous through not just Earth, but the entire cosmos. A worshipper of Death, the most feared and dangerous being in the universe.

ASSUMING he doesn't then go 'hmm, I better be careful and not get tagged', he'll get....tagged. Would he be OHKO? If not.....

What happens AFTER he has tasted a blow from Thanos, the most feared and dangerous being in the universe?

'Oh, better taste another blow!!!'

You see what I am getting at?

Edit: your argument is essentially - Superman+WW+Marvel knows Thanos, knows what he's capable of, gets tagged, and STILL don't then start using evasion tactics.

Or worse, WW/Marvel will see Superman getting tagged, getting staggered (or OHKO, depending on what you believe), and them going...hmm, yes, we shall do the same!

As I said. Supes/DS is a fight for comics. Ignoring their character AND powers is fundamentally unsound.

You're basically reducing them to idiots. 'We're facing a universal threat - better go in and take some hits! Oh no, we're hit! Better keep going!'

Honestly, Wonder Woman and Marvel in the long run are just fillers. The real fight will go down to Superman vs Thanos. Thanos has been portrayed as being the big bad guy that under optimal conditions would be hard to be defeated by a team of Captain Marvel level characters. Any doubts?

Well Odin or at least the portrayal of Odin that could not KO Thanos back several years ago would one shot clock Captain Marvel, or Wonder Wonder as he did to the Silver Surfer, who is a strong rival of Thor. This is really Superman vs Thanos let's not kid ourselves. Thanos has since become more powerful. Before losing his power, he was calling on armies of the dead to battle for him, which was just one of his abilities. I believe that he is more powerful now, but only time can tell.

Superman in character isn't going evasive. He doesn't really know Thanos intimately enough to draw this conclusion.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Except for the times when it has been?

Do you mean the 3 times he unleashed a flurry of punches against slow opponents ?

It's a really shaky standard you're applying here, imo.

What standard are you talking about ?

Why are you defining it as shaky ?

People like Wonder Woman and the Flash get tagged plenty too, but we don't say those enemies are as fast as them?

Is Gorilla Grodd a quick character in combat ?

Is Batman especially quicker than Gorilla Grodd too ?

Why is Superman different? Because he gets hit more?

He get hit more and he fail to succeed at defending against the attacks by avoiding or blocking.

That just means you're arguing powerset and leaving out personality, then.

I'm arguing feats.

We know he's more often than not a brawler. We know that he will legitimately take a punch for no other reason than it's better that he does it than nobody else.

Or because he doesn't have the capacity to block it or avoid it.

Originally posted by Stoic
Honestly, Wonder Woman and Marvel in the long run are just fillers. The real fight will go down to Superman vs Thanos. Thanos has been portrayed as being the big bad guy that under optimal conditions would be hard to be defeated by a team of Captain Marvel level characters. Any doubts?

[b]
Well Odin or at least the portrayal of Odin that could not KO Thanos back several years ago would one shot clock Captain Marvel, or Wonder Wonder as he did to the Silver Surfer, who is a strong rival of Thor. This is really Superman vs Thanos let's not kid ourselves. Thanos has since become more powerful. Before losing his power, he was calling on armies of the dead to battle for him, which was just one of his abilities. I believe that he is more powerful now, but only time can tell.

Superman in character isn't going evasive. He doesn't really know Thanos intimately enough to draw this conclusion.

You're basically saying Thanos is either going to OHKO him, or Superman is going to allow himself to be beaten to death, without going evasive, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And atom-splitting sword (or was is electrons? W/ever).

electron (+sword swing) --> electron + electron + positron

where the energy for the electron-positron pair production comes, in this case, from the energy of the sword swing. In this example, an electron-positron pair has to be created in order to satisfy the Law of Conservation of Lepton Number (left-hand side: +1, right-hand side: +1 + 1 - 1 = +1, OK) and the Law of Conservation of Electric Charge.

Originally posted by Magnon
Dunno, but electrons are elementary, or fundamental, particles and as such indivisible (in a sense). There's no such thing as a "half of an electron"; trying to "split" an electron could however result in particle-production, e.g.

electron (+sword swing) --> electron + electron + positron

where the energy for the electron-positron pair production comes, in this case, from the energy of the sword swing. In this example, an electron-positron pair has to be created in order to satisfy the Law of Conservation of Lepton Number (left-hand side: +1, right-hand side: +1 + 1 - 1 = +1, OK) and the Law of Conservation of Electric Charge.

Got mixed up with KC. Her sword could carve electrons off an atom.

DCnU could 'merely' split atoms.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Got mixed up with KC. Her sword could carve electrons off an atom.

DCnU could 'merely' split atoms.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nope, which is PRECISELY why Superman et al AREN'T going to take him lightly. Also, you forget Diana's lasso. And atom-splitting sword (or was is electrons? W/ever).

But how many times will he get hit before he draws this conclusion? Once? Twice? Three times?

You're basically saying Thanos is either going to OHKO him, or Superman is going to allow himself to be beaten to death, without going evasive, lol.

How many times was he hit by Doomsday. Superman rocks out like that. In his mind he will believe that he's going to eventually turn Thanos into paste. let's not make this about me taking a side. I have no idea who would win. Both have feats to suggest that either could take this, while the good Captain, and Wonder Woman would be swept away at the level of power being thrown around by these two. I see no reason why Superman would go all phase dodgy, he isn't facing the Beyonder here. Not that that tactic would help him against the Beyonder. Yes Thanos could miss a few punch attempts but like Superman, he has other tools to rely on.

Whoever won would know that it was a tough fight. keeping in mind though, that Thanos may be at High Sky Father or above level so this may be a mismatch. I don't want to say anything until i find out just how powerful he is, as it stands, a Phoenix Avatar is above a Sky Father on the cosmic scale. Odin heard full well what the Phoenix would do to him if he were to call on her again, just as an example.

I have to wait and see.

Going back to Wonder Woman and Captain marvel being here. This may actually be a hindrance to Superman, and he'd likely tell them to step aside, because he'd have to dial back to their damage tolerances in order to keep from injuring them at his much higher levels.

Just some thoughts to be considered.

Originally posted by Stoic
How many times was he hit by Doomsday. Superman rocks out like that. In his mind he will believe that he's going to eventually turn Thanos into paste. let's not make this about me taking a side. I have no idea who would win. Both have feats to suggest that either could take this, while the good Captain, and Wonder Woman would be swept away at the level of power being thrown around by these two. I see no reason why Superman would go all phase dodgy, he isn't facing the Beyonder here. Not that that tactic would help him against the Beyonder. Yes Thanos could miss a few punch attempts but like Superman, he has other tools to rely on.

Whoever won would know that it was a tough fight. keeping in mind though, that Thanos may be at High Sky Father or above level so this may be a mismatch. I don't want to say anything until i find out just how powerful he is, as it stands, a Phoenix Avatar is above a Sky Father on the cosmic scale. Odin heard full well what the Phoenix would do to him if he were to call on her again, just as an example.

I have to wait and see.

Going back to Wonder Woman and Captain marvel being here. This may actually be a hindrance to Superman, and he'd likely tell them to step aside, because he'd have to dial back to their damage tolerances in order to keep from injuring them at his much higher levels.

Just some thoughts to be considered.

Bad example. Doomsday was written to be fast. Booster even explicitly comments on his speed. And compares it, not to Bats,WW, Jonn....but to THE benchmark of speed.

Why is being tagged by Doomsday a mark of slowness??? Why isn't Doomsday just that fast???

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Bad example. Doomsday was written to be fast. Booster even explicitly comments on his speed. And compares it, not to Bats,WW, Jonn....but to THE benchmark of speed.

Why is being tagged by Doomsday a mark of slowness??? Why isn't Doomsday just that fast???

And Thanos was fast enough to punch out a speeding ex Herald of Galactus. Let's not get into how DC is too fast in terms of their characters which means that they can't be hit by Marvel characters. No one should be willing to believe that junk. Speed is speed.

Originally posted by Stoic
And Thanos was fast enough to punch out a speeding ex Herald of Galactus. Let's not get into how DC is too fast in terms of their characters which means that they can't be hit by Marvel characters. No one should be willing to believe that junk. Speed is speed.

Originally posted by Stoic
And Thanos was fast enough to punch out a speeding ex Herald of Galactus. Let's not get into how DC is too fast in terms of their characters which means that they can't be hit by Marvel characters. No one should be willing to believe that junk. Speed is speed.

Speed IS NOT speed.

Speed IS RELATIVE and therefore has to be measured in order to give an accurate account of depictions.

The disparity in speed as presented by the CANON is CLEARLY in favor of the DC characters.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
every Thanos reflex feat has to any speed attack of any sort gets passed off as PIS. The double standard are terrible on this forum 😂

Thanos is definitely fast enough. If not, why was Supreme power Hyperion dead in his grasp? It looked like he broke his neck. There has never been an iteration of Hyperion that was slow from my recollection. Supreme power Hyperion was pretty fast.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Speed IS NOT speed.

Speed IS RELATIVE and therefore has to be measured in order to give an accurate account of depictions.

The disparity in speed as presented by the CANON is CLEARLY in favor of the DC characters.

Marvel has very fast characters as well, and while I see that you are using this argument to spark a debate that would have us bringing up the fastest from either company, I assure you that Marvel has speedsters that can keep up with Superman if not surpass his speed. Let's not pretend as if the Flash wouldn't run rings around Superman. We are talking about Superman, and not the rest of the speedy characters that exist in DC. Thanos has hit fast characters, which is something that I won't ignore.

Originally posted by Stoic
And Thanos was fast enough to punch out a speeding ex Herald of Galactus. Let's not get into how DC is too fast in terms of their characters which means that they can't be hit by Marvel characters. No one should be willing to believe that junk. Speed is speed.

Lol. You do understand the concept of differing levels of speed, right?

Captain America has superspeed. Quicksilver has superspeed. Silver Surfer has superspeed. Black Panther has superspeed.

BP has tagged Surfer. Pretty sure Cap has tagged QS. Doesn't make them equal. A slower character tagging a faster character is.....PIS.

Btw, I wanted to draw this point:

and he'd likely tell them to step aside, because he'd have to dial back to their damage tolerances in order to keep from injuring them at his much higher levels

False. We know exactly how Superman would have treated WW, in the face of an alien threat:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/wE1NKdrA1HCdnZSypdD9bh4rwb34NdaVlEaHfJqnHJ_kJayXe8Obrj-QEqNoDyPvh774tlVoFRGW=s1600

In their FIRST ever meeting, he already acknowledges that this isn't some pretty damsel who needs looking after.

Later, when he comes back from Apokolips to fight DS, he's pissed as hell. Does he tell the others to hang back? Puff his chest out, and let DS tag him 'to get the measure of him?' See how powerful this alien despot is?

No. He had general knowledge of DS:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/3Uxcg7i-BavS3heFFk5nfoIe2e9eHZb5u8oPKWT-FPee6fdV5wFHhgGNlM56tXWJu8pt6_DUQGI3=s1600

And used his speed:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/k1FD7g-v4TvJn-fmv16qbLldAmTidfeSx7thu5WWrQjcw0Pz1LKQZe4lZ0PNQ2iPOGlIVgLbt3C_=s1600

No 'Hey, stand back guys, only I can handle this menace on my own!'.

Does Thanos actually have any speed feats? Combat feats are iffy - I have said this many a time, we need to take both 'space cheese' and combat feats together.

Relying on combat feats alone, turns Batman and Cap into abstracts, lol.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
every Thanos reflex feat has to any speed attack of any sort gets passed off as PIS. The double standard are terrible on this forum 😂

That's why I argue for both 'space cheese' (which shouldn't be ignored) and combat feats.