Endless vs Marvel Abstracts

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

wtf are you even talking about....? sacred cows?? and where have i ever said marvel's supreme being>dc's? and you didn't get banned for saying mordru could beat odin but it's hilarious that's how you're trying to paint it. lol i don't even think i reported you in that thread, though i said i would. i didn't have to, you made yourself difficult for mods NOT to notice. but glad you're over it though lying about why you were banned isn't the best idea. 👆

We are not talking about supreme beings though. You're so keen to equalize every character when it come to DC/Marvel but not when its reversed.

Tell me which skyfather in DC is equal to Odin then? Which character is equal to Galactus?

Get over your hypocrisy? Far from it.

lol what? every time any new god has been beaten by any earth hero or villain has been retconned now? and any time a hero or villain has beaten a god has also been retconned? dude.....

Yes, it is confirmed in Final Crisis and Multiversity. You're not accepting it?

if that was retconned i never saw it. that would be for the best, but scan? and no sh!t they aren't structured the same. i've said that i hundred times. doesn't mean an outer realm doesn't scale though. universes within universes has been a thing in marvel for a long time.

Yes, it is.

So is in DC. We are talking about dimensions bigger than multiverse though which is just not there in marvel. When you go outside multiverse in marvel, there is just a void as seen in Ultimates.

and bitter rant?? lolol i've been nothing but cordial during this entire discussion. your opinions of everything dc related vs everything marvel related are known by....everyone. which is why your opinion is so meaningless to everyone. you are the consummate dc fanboy, incapable of looking at things in an unbiased way. everyone knows just who and what you are. since i don't want any repeats of our last go-round, carry on talking to whoever will entertain you.
👆

Yes, everyone here is a DC fanboy who thinks DC cosmology is bigger than marvel and you're the only rational person.

We get it dude.

Originally posted by operator616
But again, who told you that Strange was in a microverse? He entered a very strange realm (where time has spatial existence) and from that scale regular fully fledged universes seemed like small droplets inside it. That is exactly what that scene says. That is how i interpreted that scene and that's why i likened it to the New Gods instance. Im definitely not talking about any pockets or sub atomic realms. But i can see why i might have come across that way.

Btw, even post retcon Beyond realm made Eternity look insignificant.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2964576-ffann023_63.jpg

It didn't seem to change even after the retcon. Recently it's been mentioned to exist outside the omniverse as well.

Eh... im not surprised in the slightest, tbh. You have to realize that different writers use the same terminology to mean different things. There are some unambiguous terms like multiverse, universe which have a clear cut meaning and everyone agrees upon. The macroverse on the other hand? It's open to interpretation and hence different writers use them differently. Just like Ewing uses omniverse differently from how Kaminski and others use it. Case in point: In mighty avengers hank pym was referred to try and breaking (and he later succeeded) the barriers of the "macroverse": https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VoMdLZ8ITDCZZpgp1HzLEJUPGXympQJ6wKwflw_2OGreE9s_pbu4wiaTC-a14r_2RIvt4U8kayIVQw=s1600

The barriers that he broke were those of regular 616 universe. In this particular story macroverse referred to the regular mainstream universe. This is another instance where the writer was just paralleling how the regular universe was "macro" compared to the microverse which was also featured in that story.

So how do we interpret the macroverse in the surfer story? context. If you read carefully the surfer story you'll notice how the macroverse literally contained surfer's universe. But anyway this should seal the deal:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LtrWGJWVJS4/VoTbvLasB6I/AAAAAAAAUXM/BClBppoM1Fg/s1600-Ic42/RCO003.jpg

"the macroverse.....a universe so large it contained several universes within it"

Could we agree now that it's used differently in this story? In yours, it seems to be planet/sun level of existence. Here it's clearly used as a multiversal level of existence (it's actually meant to represent the whole multiverse or at least that's what i got from the story). I really urge you to look carefully through the issues again, i think you might be missing some important details.

And i actually know about the style of Dematteis' writing, i followed him closely for a while. I agree that sometimes he can speak about those "dream" universes in a metaphorical way but again: i look at the context. In the surfer arc i legitimately concluded that he wasn't playing around.

And what happens when you go outside multiverse? There's just void.

So where is the dimension that is bigger than multiverse in marvel?

Originally posted by operator616

It seems you failed to follow the discussion because nowhere did i ever mention pocket universes. I was merely claiming that Marvel has an instance similar to that New Gods arc. Anyway here is Dr Strange going to a realm where each atom is a fully fledged universe:

https://imgur.com/2e58c0fc-021c-4835-a000-2f46ae87350c
https://imgur.com/d21644aa-355e-4bbe-ab26-bfc5ef699475

Like this then?

http://i.imgur.com/Hr8Otv1.jpg

"Universes explodes within atoms"!!!

edit

wrong thread

Originally posted by operator616

Btw, even post retcon Beyond realm made Eternity look insignificant.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2964576-ffann023_63.jpg

It didn't seem to change even after the retcon. Recently it's been mentioned to exist outside the omniverse as well.

I expected this from Master, not you. Kubik and Kosmos went to the edge of the universe there and never beyond it hence they turned into microverse next. That would make Beyond realm even smaller as it is just at the edge of the universe.

@Mr Mind

I have, it’s just that they are so unimpressive no point to even bother. The doctor strange transmultiversal scan have been posted too many times to count…and it’s the best marvel has to offer Remember how we get fixated on the size beyond realm/dark multiverse/fourth world? Show me a realm that is infinitely bigger than the beyond realm. I can show you dimension that’s infinity x infinity x infinity bigger than the new genesis. Primal Monitor view the entire DC OMNIVERSE as a germ! The judges of the source are far beyond the dc omniverse as well. Tell me, who in marvel is far beyond the marvel omniverse. TOAA is not truly omnipotent anymore, so who else is out there? https://static.comicvine.com/upload...42878-pade1.jpg https://static.comicvine.com/upload...88146-DkPYy.jpg https://static.comicvine.com/upload...84690-4wfTl.jpg

Oh there are countless beings beyond the omniverse in marvel. in captain america & the mighty avengers series it was revealed that there are debasers, gardeners (different from ex-nihilo's race) and many other races who toy with reality: https://imgur.com/a/K6UcsFL

Indeed they exist beyond the omniverse entirely: https://imgur.com/a/OjWNomX

This was a portal beyond the omniverse created by WESPE (terrorist organization) and through it one of them came (as mentioned above: the smallest part of a some race)

Does DC have countless races beyond the omniverse? 🙂

Under over-monitor and the judges of the source, lies the sixth dimension, that spawns birth and death of infinite multiverses, perpetua’s creation is just one of infinite multiverses, perpetua’s creation alone consist of infinite universes/hypertime (all alternative timelines there ever were) /higher dimensions/monitors realm etc. now do you see how far of a distance and layers 3rd dimensional multiverse is compare to the greater DC omniverse?

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...90037-apQCg.jpg https://imgur.com/peLPCkH under that it’s the 5th dimension. which is the freaking imagination, exist outside of time, it’s everything at once, existing backward and forward, simultaneously

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...77381-COyjI.jpg https://static.comicvine.com/upload...89583-SEDTg.jpg https://static.comicvine.com/upload...80526-z0b6m.jpg

Keep in mind these are dimensions so grand and meta, they do not appear on the map of the multiverse.

existing outside of time is hardly something to be impressed over. If you look at my dr strange scan even that realm portrayed time as having spatial existence (as in, it exists everywhere at once), there are many dimensions like this.

Also according to your own theory of how DC is structured, where are the 7th, 90th and 792923th (higher) dimensions located? Are they below the sixth dimension? if so do you have proof?

Btw, Marvel's cosmology isn't as well as organized as DC, so it does not have an equivalent of this and that, im putting this together myself and so are you to an extent. Or were you under the impression that any of today's writers take into account a New Gods story from 1996?

And what are the names of these spatial dimensions? scans and detailed explanations on these dimensions? All of DC’s higher dimensions are on display with very detailed structures and explanations

They're designated numerically for the most part, but are usually referred to by their ruler's name, like tiboro's or dweller's dimension. In dormammu's case it's dark dimension. They haven't been thoroughly explored or at least not in an impressive way. In that same series Dweller and his cousin were referred to as higher dimensional beings to whom the 3rd are insignificant, but they weren't that overly powerful. There were however other super dimensional beings whose shockwaves shook galaxies. Not that impressive, i know but i never claimed that Marvel's higher dimensional beings were as powerful as DC's. But the cosmological structure is the same. Id post scans of what i said but there really isn't anything too impressive to brag about so unless you request something, id rather not.

@philosophia

You threw a lot of stuff at me - from fractal dimensions, universe inside bubbles etc. - which, funnily enough, is exactly what your scan shows of Doctor Strange, him entering a psychedelic 'pocket' dimension the size of a beach ball. Creating/visiting pocket/small Universes is something neither company is strange to [excuse the pun]. The problem is that you're getting this backwards - it's not a matter of the 'normal' Universe/characters [in this particular case, Dr. Strange] interacting with smaller [pocket, microverse, the ones in helmets, the ones in hats, the ones in balls heh etc.] Universes/Dimensions. It's a matter of higher dimensions making his Multiverse a speck - as the Fourth World does in DC.

To put it succinctly - I keep asking you to show me a hand that's as big as a building compared to yours, but you keep showing me yours compared to a miniature building that you built as a hobby.

I don't get where are you getting the pocket universe thing. See those spheres in the second scan? those literally represent universes, a cosmos containing countless such spheres/universes. It's nothing similar to ones contained in helmets or hats. It may not dwarf mainstream universes, but it doesn't matter, since we have no reason to believe those universes were anything but normal ones. But even if you disagree (which is fine) the (pre and post retcon) beyond realm should satisfy your criterion

I understand the frustration but the macroverse - as it is being defined currently, is not what you say it is. Call the Fantastic Four/Spiderman issue a retcon, or a clarification, if you'd like, but it is simply the case that it takes absolute precedence that the Macroverse is simply a 'bigger' Universe than the mainstream one, and it does not contain it - and we see that's the case, as Reed says it and shows it as the reverse of the coin of the microverse - which is what it was in Surfer's story, too [https://imgur.com/a/2VF5ggw]. In the Hank Pym instance he also says that Reed told him how to go through it, also by simply increasing his size [https://imgur.com/a/QcJZH6Q] so that's even further proof.

I'd like to entertain going into pre-retcon (x2...lol) territory, because I disagree with your assessment there, too [the 'several' Universes [i.e. not multiverse as you say] seemed to be accessed by some sort of 'wormhole' [which Reed alluded to using similar the first time, before he used the growing method, too], and issue #43's description literally says that the mainstream Universe and the Macroverse are separate: https://imgur.com/a/aS0YaMH - "Breach the zone between the macroverse and our current Universe to get back to Earth", contradicting itself in what it was said in the earlier issue], but we'd be going too much into retcon-fan-fiction, since it's no longer relevant.

As for the later part, it's so blatant when looking at Dematteis' line of work with dreams/Universes what he means, that while I respect your opinion, I'll have to hard disagree with it. I can count on one hand the comic books I've read where he didn't associate dreams/consciousness with creating/shaping worlds.

Unless there's something new here, I'll leave it to agree to disagree on the 4th world/Marvel cosmology.

You're reaching into other comics -- while ignoring the relevant (surfer) arc at hand -- to try to disprove what happened in the surfer arc even though they were written by different writers with completely different ideas in mind? So now that Ewing sees the marvel omniverse as a single multiverse we're supposed to ignore all of Marvel's previous history and see it as a single multiverse right? Because that's exactly what you're doing here. Anyway here is another instance, under a yet different writer (from Galactus the devourer series) than all those mentioned where Surfer goes into the microverse and mentions he must get back to the macroverse:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/2HRqOlyX1nFojS5DN7Ip9iJy0juVo4VFz2CZL1s1cZWG_JK0W-kIo_B1MyFlALK9qMp_SsbyRJVO=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/KuugumSzxb83MV3y2MCzmyeipxI-v_VUqbEhSFRDpQGqbhd-XKmN77mHE-ybORPn0pjtmWTyCdYh=s1600

Next page he does get back and we see the so called "macroverse" he was referring to was the good old mainstream universe: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/N8LxeNjqIqKMb23fghjccR9z_t4dVhhoW7FCJxrgQ6-Lg2KuybQuVAc18dz_CIENBMvvCQ518OZf=s1600

Like i said different writers, different intentions. The Hank Pym instance was also a similar case where pym broke the barriers of reality/macroverse (regular universe) to go to overspace.

You can argue about whether the macroverse was meant to represent the multiverse or whether it's simply a level of existence from which you see tiny universes, either way it was definitely not supposed to represent a universe so not sure what your point there is? And either way there are infinite levels above it... And im not sure what you're arguing with Dematteis either, you're saying that the entire surfer arc was a dream?

Originally posted by Galan007
Feel like this same discussion about scaling has played out a few different times recently, no?

Both companies have infinite numbered dimensions, no doubt... But aside from Marvel's Beyond Realm(which I do feel is about equal to DC's Monitor Sphere in terms of scale) I still have yet to see any explicit evidence suggesting that Marvel's upper-echelon dimensions scale to the same magnitude as DC's upper-echelon dimensions(ie. those that are above even the Monitor Sphere.) Perhaps Marvel does scale to such a degree and I've just never seen the evidence/scans. If anyone would know it'd be operator, though, so I'm curious what his thoughts are here.

They obviously don't scale the same as the 5th or 6th dimension that's for sure. But DC seems to be inconsistent in portraying dimensions higher than that. So DC does have infinite dimensions (according to Rama kushna) do they all scale the same way the 5th scales from 3rd? I doubt it. Since 6th is the highest plane of existence. Apart from those two i would say that marvel scales the same as DC. However the beings occupying those dimensions in Marvel are much weaker. That's for sure. Marvel's supposedly "higher dimensional" beings have a terrible record in terms of power level.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ewing has made it clear that marvel omniverse/multiverse is made of individual universes.

And what happens when you go outside multiverse? There's just void.

So where is the dimension that is bigger than multiverse in marvel?

We're debating entire history of both companies not just the cosmology of one single writer. I could just as well ask you where are all those bubbles every time the 4th world is shown.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Like this then?

http://i.imgur.com/Hr8Otv1.jpg

"Universes explodes within atoms"!!!

The 2 instances are completely different. Show me where universes are contained in spheres.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I expected this from Master, not you. Kubik and Kosmos went to the edge of the universe there and never beyond it hence they turned into microverse next. That would make Beyond realm even smaller as it is just at the edge of the universe.

Re-read the issue. It revolved around universe structured like a wheel. kubik and kosmos went to the highest plane of existence and then to the lowest because that's how apparently things are. Transcending the highest plane gets you back to the lowest. Really nothing ambiguous about this issue, tbh.

Originally posted by operator616
I don't get where are you getting the pocket universe thing. See those spheres in the second scan? those literally represent universes, a cosmos containing countless such spheres/universes. It's nothing similar to ones contained in helmets or hats. It may not dwarf mainstream universes, but it doesn't matter, since we have no reason to believe those universes were anything but normal ones. But even if you disagree (which is fine) the (pre and post retcon) beyond realm should satisfy your criterion

A Universe existing in a sphere the size of a beach ball - the same as a Universe existing in Dr. Fate's helmet, for example - has nothing to do with what's being talked about - which is a Dimension where the mainstream Multiverse itself is inside bubbles.

I'm asking you to give me an equivalent to the 4th World.

You have failed, repeatedly, to provide arguments, and go into unrelated tangents of "Universe" existing in beach balls - which has zero relevance.

To be able to make you understand, I even gave you an example.

So.

Take a step back, and read this again:
To put it succinctly - I keep asking you to show me a hand that's as big as a building compared to yours, but you keep showing me yours compared to a miniature building that you built as a hobby.

Then come back with a better argument, once you fully do.

As I said - the pre-retcon Beyond realm may be comparable to the Fourth World, I'm still undecided.

You can go all the way back to my first post, but I can help you and quote it, if you want.

You're reaching into other comics -- while ignoring the relevant (surfer) arc at hand -- to try to disprove what happened in the surfer arc even though they were written by different writers with completely different ideas in mind? So now that Ewing sees the marvel omniverse as a single multiverse we're supposed to ignore all of Marvel's previous history and see it as a single multiverse right? Because that's exactly what you're doing here. Anyway here is another instance, under a yet different writer (from Galactus the devourer series) than all those mentioned where Surfer goes into the microverse and mentions he must get back to the macroverse:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/2HRqOlyX1..._SsbyRJVO=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/KuugumSzx...tmWTyCdYh=s1600

Next page he does get back and we see the so called "macroverse" he was referring to was the good old mainstream universe: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/N8LxeNjqI...vCQ518OZf=s1600

Like i said different writers, different intentions. The Hank Pym instance was also a similar case where pym broke the barriers of reality/macroverse (regular universe) to go to overspace.

You can argue about whether the macroverse was meant to represent the multiverse or whether it's simply a level of existence from which you see tiny universes, either way it was definitely not supposed to represent a universe so not sure what your point there is? And either way there are infinite levels above it... And im not sure what you're arguing with Dematteis either, you're saying that the entire surfer arc was a dream?

I'm using other comics because I have knowledge - better, more recent knowledge of the dimension you talked about, than the one you provided. The Macroverse was clearly defined, after the Surfer comic book, which contradicts your position. I don't care about different writers - I care about Marvel cosmology as it is clearly defined in canon. Jim Shooter probably had a different opinion of Beyonder, too - but that didn't stop the actual canon version to be vastly different than what it was initially assumed to be. Reed directly addressed the Surfer comic by clarifying that the mainstream Universe WAS NOT inside the Macroverse:

We're not about to discuss pre-retcon beyonder and pre-retcon Macroverse [even though it's only a clarification, not a retcon, that you simply refuse to accept and fervently try to muddy] . We're not going into looney-tunes absurdity here.

So, no. You used outdated statements from a Surfer comic [that, as I provided in my previous post, was contradicted within that same comic by saying the Macroverse and main Universe are separate] that has since been clarified.

I'm not into people not accepting the evidence, op. So if you continue to do so, I will put an end to the discussion.

Do you have other evidence, or is this a wrap?

When I brought up the Eternities, my comment was that DC doesn't have something on that scale - multiple embodiments of Multiverses existing in the same cosmology - based on what is known of both franchises.

Instead, DC cosmology functions solidly on string theory and branes, and the vibrational frequencies of said strings and branes. The Orrery of Worlds is the lowest dimensional brane, existing below the Sphere of the Gods, which in turn exists below the Monitor Sphere, then the Source Wall which separates everything from the Overmonitor.

Long story short: the DC cosmology is shaped through different branes which exist at different vibrational frequencies.

The Marvel multiverse structure is defined by divergence in time, but it is also a multiverse that possesses a Brane structure, like the DC Multiverse, because the cosmic abstracts are able to interact with each other and exist on higher-dimensional planes.

Up to at least 16-dimensions, according to this scan. It can be said to be how cosmic entities like the Living Tribunal can act in individual realities without causing time divergences - they already exist "outside" those timelines.

But the Beyonders themselves also exist and come from their own higher-dimensional Universe, one which the Living Tribunal itself mentions, and is where the energies for the Cosmic Cubes come from.

In other words, another Universe on a higher dimension separate from the main Marvel Multiverses in their entirety - separate from the First Firmament, the Second to Sixth Cosmos, and separate from the two-in-one Seventh and Eighth Cosmos.

The Marvel cosmology allows for more than one cosmic embodiment of infinite multiverses to exist at any one time, with the Far Shore (and whatever is beyond it) being another plane of existence where those other Eternities reside.

On the other hand, most of the infinite Universes (or multiverses) of the DCU are confined within the Bleed. With the Bleed itself being a "brane" within the Sphere of the Gods, housing its own dimensions; the Sphere of Gods being a "brane" within the Monitor Sphere.

It is easier to judge which is bigger based on looking at the cosmology as a whole

@philosohpia: Why are you so hinged on the macroverse to begin with? It's just a name given to a particular level of existence and there are infinite levels above it -- not called the macroverse, so let's call them the A-realms. Here, that's better.

So great, the macroverse has been retconned -- which as i said is irrelevant in the first place because it's used in different contexts -- what happened to the A-realms? Did they just disappear or what?

But to answer your last comment, ive posted everything i have so if you're not convinced this will be a waste of both of our time from now on.

Originally posted by operator616

We're debating entire history of both companies not just the cosmology of one single writer. I could just as well ask you where are all those bubbles every time the 4th world is shown.

Why? Who said we are debating entire history of both companies? Final Crisis explicitly showed even a single new god as bigger than the multiverse. Why would universes in bubbles be necessary then?

The 2 instances are completely different. Show me where universes are contained in spheres.

Why? Both are universes in atoms, first prove that those universes were as big as a normal universe because realm unknown isn't as big as a multiverse.

Re-read the issue. It revolved around universe structured like a wheel. kubik and kosmos went to the highest plane of existence and then to the lowest because that's how apparently things are. Transcending the highest plane gets you back to the lowest. Really nothing ambiguous about this issue, tbh.

Seriously? They straight up said it was a single universe they went around. Are you turning into master and confusing universe with multiverse?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
When I brought up the Eternities, my comment was that DC doesn't have something on that scale - multiple embodiments of Multiverses existing in the same cosmology - based on what is known of both franchises.

Instead, DC cosmology functions solidly on string theory and branes, and the vibrational frequencies of said strings and branes. The Orrery of Worlds is the lowest dimensional brane, existing below the Sphere of the Gods, which in turn exists below the Monitor Sphere, then the Source Wall which separates everything from the Overmonitor.

Long story short: the DC cosmology is shaped through different branes which exist at different vibrational frequencies.

The Marvel multiverse structure is defined by divergence in time, but it is also a multiverse that possesses a Brane structure, like the DC Multiverse, because the cosmic abstracts are able to interact with each other and exist on higher-dimensional planes.

Up to at least 16-dimensions, according to this scan. It can be said to be how cosmic entities like the Living Tribunal can act in individual realities without causing time divergences - they already exist "outside" those timelines.

But the Beyonders themselves also exist and come from their own higher-dimensional Universe, one which the Living Tribunal itself mentions, and is where the energies for the Cosmic Cubes come from.

In other words, another Universe on a higher dimension separate from the main Marvel Multiverses in their entirety - separate from the First Firmament, the Second to Sixth Cosmos, and separate from the two-in-one Seventh and Eighth Cosmos.

The Marvel cosmology allows for more than one cosmic embodiment of infinite multiverses to exist at any one time, with the Far Shore (and whatever is beyond it) being another plane of existence where those other Eternities reside.

On the other hand, most of the infinite Universes (or multiverses) of the DCU are confined within the Bleed. With the Bleed itself being a "brane" within the Sphere of the Gods, housing its own dimensions; the Sphere of Gods being a "brane" within the Monitor Sphere.

It is easier to judge which is bigger based on looking at the cosmology as a whole

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111238764/4834110-8508705470-45534.jpg

Fifth dimension is beyond the multiverse entirely. Moreover, marvel dimensions don't become infinitely bigger with each dimensions.

Originally posted by abhilegend
DC multiverse already has infinite dimensions.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111238764/4834110-8508705470-45534.jpg

Fifth dimension is beyond the multiverse entirely. Moreover, marvel dimensions don't become infinitely bigger with each dimensions.

What are you talking about? That's not even adressing the point I'm making.
Everything within the Source Wall is just one Multiverse, even when you take into account Convergence bringing back past iterations of the Multiverse within the Bleed. There is what is within the Bleed, the Orrery of Worlds, and then there is what exists in the Sphere of the Gods and Monitor Sphere. That's all one Multiverse, as defined by Morrison's map, and the limit of the Presence's Creation (thus of the DC Multiverse).

The fact that all of those dimensions and branes are interconnected with one another. Heaven, Hell, Nightmare, Dream, Highland, and the Underworld are all connected to the worlds inside the Bleed; they simply exist on a higher vibrational realm/brane than the Universes in the Bleed do, with the same applying to the Monitor Sphere.

They are individual realms and dimensions, but the way the Multiverse is set up makes all of them part of one Multiverse.

AND Actually, the Fifth Dimension is situated within proximity to the Bleed, so it is not "outside" the Multiverse, but part of it. try again

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
What are you talking about? That's not even adressing the point I'm making.
Everything within the Source Wall is just one Multiverse, even when you take into account Convergence bringing back past iterations of the Multiverse within the Bleed. There is what is within the Bleed, the Orrery of Worlds, and then there is what exists in the Sphere of the Gods and Monitor Sphere. That's all one Multiverse, as defined by Morrison's map, and the limit of the Presence's Creation (thus of the DC Multiverse).

The fact that all of those dimensions and branes are interconnected with one another. Heaven, Hell, Nightmare, Dream, Highland, and the Underworld are all connected to the worlds inside the Bleed; they simply exist on a higher vibrational realm/brane than the Universes in the Bleed do, with the same applying to the Monitor Sphere.

They are individual realms and dimensions, but the way the Multiverse is set up makes all of them part of one Multiverse.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
AND Actually, the Fifth Dimension is situated within proximity to the Bleed, so it is not "outside" the Multiverse, but part of it. try again

Again, shut up.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/3/37/Perpetua_Multiverse5.jpeg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, WTF? Sphere of gods is above multiverse, so big that just a new god is bigger than multiverse. How is it the same multiverse?

Again, shut up.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/3/37/Perpetua_Multiverse5.jpeg

the 6th dimension is still inside the Source Wall. So 5 would be too.

The Source Wall was explicitly made to seal all of Perpetua's creation from the Void.

That's why the Anti-Monitor gets upset, his realm was supposed to surround everything, but the Source Wall rendered it null and void. The Dark Multiverse is inside the Source Wall too, but it's not on the map either, the map only shows 4D space, but we know stuff in the map rotates through 5D space (the House of Heroes)

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why? Who said we are debating entire history of both companies? Final Crisis explicitly showed even a single new god as bigger than the multiverse. Why would universes in bubbles be necessary then?

Why? Both are universes in atoms, first prove that those universes were as big as a normal universe because realm unknown isn't as big as a multiverse.

Seriously? They straight up said it was a single universe they went around. Are you turning into master and confusing universe with multiverse?

Because that's what the discussion is about. And you missed the point, but here let me try again: every time the multiverse is featured in DC now do we assume it has infinite dimensions (upper) even though it is not mentioned in the arc?

You're asking me to prove a negative. Why will those universes not be normal?

Where in my post did i mention the multiverse? i was talking about levels of existence.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
the 6th dimension is still inside the Source Wall. So 5 would be too.

The Source Wall was explicitly made to seal all of Perpetua's creation from the Void.

That's why the Anti-Monitor gets upset, his realm was supposed to surround everything, but the Source Wall rendered it null and void. The Dark Multiverse is inside the Source Wall too, but it's not on the map either, the map only shows 4D space, but we know stuff in the map rotates through 5D space (the House of Heroes)

Seriously, shut up troll. The map of multiverse straight up shows source wall sorrounding the multiverse.

https://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/Multiversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg

Fifth dimension is beyond the multiverse entirely, yet here's this guy.

facepalm

Originally posted by operator616
Because that's what the discussion is about. And you missed the point, but here let me try again: every time the multiverse is featured in DC now do we assume it has infinite dimensions (upper) even though it is not mentioned in the arc?

No, it's about current cosmology.

Absolutely, unless its retconned.

You're asking me to prove a negative. Why will those universes not be normal?

Because they are subatomic.

Where in my post did i mention the multiverse? i was talking about levels of existence.

For what purpose? They were dimension within a universe, useless in this discussion. We are talking about fourth world which is infinitely bigger than the multiverse.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it's about current cosmology.

Absolutely, unless its retconned.

Because they are subatomic.

For what purpose? They were dimension within a universe, useless in this discussion. We are talking about fourth world which is infinitely bigger than the multiverse.

Which includes all past history, yes, i agree.

Thus my point is proven. We apply it by default. Anyway did you see my scans regarding beyonders, debasers, gardeners, etc...?

They were never mentioned to be subatomic so that's an assumption on your part.

And so is the beyond realm.