Omnipotence vs. Omniscience

If you know your own outcome you’re safe from assault. You’d have unlimited fate to choose from.

Originally posted by Galan007
The intent of this thread seems to be that the omnipotent guy has full mastery of his powers, but lacks true omniscience(paradoxical as that is.)

I'm genuinely curious how people think the all-knowing(but otherwise powerless) guy can defend against:
-The omnipotent guy turning off his omniscience.
-The omnipotent guy dumping him into a star.
-The omnipotent guy turning him into salt.
-The omnipotent guy exploding his internal organs.
-The omnipotent guy just not allowing anything he does to succeed.

Each(or all) of which can be accomplished with a gesture. Sure, the omniscient guy might know all of that is going to happen... But how does he prevent/counter any of it?

Frequencies.

to be honest, i think quicksilver with a steel pipe would beat the absolute shit out of the omniscient guy. nevermind someone who can literally do anything.

Say you know the conditions for a heart attack and create it for whenever your in trouble against power. You’d be safe.

Originally posted by Galan007
The intent of this thread seems to be that the omnipotent guy has full mastery of his powers, but lacks true omniscience(paradoxical as that is.)

I'm genuinely curious how people think the all-knowing(but otherwise powerless) guy can defend against:
-The omnipotent guy turning off his omniscience.
-The omnipotent guy dumping him into a star.
-The omnipotent guy turning him into salt.
-The omnipotent guy exploding his internal organs.
-The omnipotent guy just not allowing anything he does to succeed.

Each(or all) of which can be accomplished with a gesture. Sure, the omniscient guy might know all of that is going to happen... But how does he prevent/counter any of it?

This is a possible scenario if the "omnipotent's" mind is working like that of a normal person, and if invoking ALE is allowed. The conditions of this fight are too vague, might go either way depending on the details.

Originally posted by Magnon
Sure, but as I said the omniscient guy might just invoke ALE to enslave the omnipotent guy's mind.

This is a possible scenario if the "omnipotent's" mind is working like that of a normal person, and if invoking ALE is allowed. The conditions of this fight are too vague, might go either way depending on the details.

But even IF he had this, assuming it existed and assuming other powers like the ALE were allowed....

He'd still need to 'fire' it off, as it were. To say it. And it's a pretty long-ass equation - by the time you're halfway through, the omnipotent could've just thought 'die'.

so match starts and omniscient guy begins reciting the antilife equation (i presume youre talking about the algebraic version from FC). but even in that scenario, just because he knows the equation doesnt mean he can use the equation successfully.

but even if he can use the ale after reciting it, the omnipotent guy just thinks "death" and the fight is over.

lmao saint ninjad me.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But even IF he had this, assuming it existed and assuming other powers like the ALE were allowed....

He'd still need to 'fire' it off, as it were. To say it. And it's a pretty long-ass equation - by the time you're halfway through, the omnipotent could've just thought 'die'.

Or omnipotent guy just thinks "nothing he does will work." Of course, that is just one of a limitless amount of possibilities... But what then? How does a guy whose *only* power is absolute knowledge counter that?

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't understand why people would assume that the omniscient guy can just will themselves into becoming omnipotent, when they have no extra powers of any kind -- they *only* have knowledge. It doesn't matter if they know all that is... If something is impossible, they cannot make it possible just by willing it so.

The omnipotent guy is not limited in such a way.

Some fictional universes work like that, perhaps that is why.

But I agree it's not always the case.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
so match starts and omniscient guy begins reciting the antilife equation (i presume youre talking about the algebraic version from FC). but even in that scenario, just because he knows the equation doesnt mean he can use the equation successfully.

but even if he can use the ale after reciting it, the omnipotent guy just thinks "death" and the fight is over.

lmao saint ninjad me.

So it boils down to how fast the omniscient guy can activate it. His thought processes would be infinitely fast (you can't have omniscience otherwise) whereas the "omnipotent" dude in this scenario is limited to forming thoughts like a normal person (at least, unless and until he wishes to have accelerated speed of thought -- but this is an action in itself, and takes time).

Darkseid, in possession of ALE, could enslave ppl without much delay at all.

Again the omniscient can distract or stall the fight at the bell. He would know exactly what to do and say to buy himself enough time to perform a significant action.

This is assuming the omnipotent starts with human level stats (he has the ability to upgrade after the bell).

Originally posted by Magnon
ALE is a metaphysical property of DCU; if you know it you can use it. Thus the omniscient guy would be able to use it (assuming that the DCU metaphysics is allowed here).

So it boils down to how fast the omniscient guy can activate it. His thought processes would be infinitely fast (you can't have omniscience otherwise) whereas the "omnipotent" dude in this scenario is limited to forming thoughts like a normal person (at least, unless and until he wishes to have accelerated speed of thought -- but this is an action in itself, and takes time).

Darkseid, in possession of ALE, could enslave ppl without much delay at all.

But regardless, what happens when the omnipotent guy just thinks "no"..?

Originally posted by Galan007
But that's... Darkseid. Granted he was wearing a human shell there, but underneath that was still the fundamental essence of Darkseid himself. Who's to say that a normal human would be even be capable of harnessing the ALE in a similar manner? Just because the omniscient guy knows the equation, doesn't mean he can actively employ it on the same level as a metaphysical, god-tier entity.

But regardless, what happens when the omnipotent guy just thinks "no"..?

If the "omnipotent" is under the influence of ALE he can no longer think "no". His free will has been removed and his mind is completely subjugated.

Originally posted by Magnon
The power of ALE is in the equation, not in the person using it. Simply knowing it is enough (within DCU).

👆

Originally posted by Magnon
If the "omnipotent" is under the influence of ALE he can no longer think "no". His free will has been removed and his mind is completely subjugated.

But if one were *truly* omnipotent, ALE would have no effect on him.

As noted by Morpheus, hope is superior to ALE 😉

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
But if one were *truly* omnipotent, ALE would have no effect on him.

As noted by Morpheus, hope is superior to ALE 😉

The omnipotent in this thread is not truly omnipotent because he lacks, for example, omniscience. The result of this vs. battle depends on the exact details of what it is that he lacks. If his mind is that of a normal person (at start, anyway, before he can amp it) then ALE can easily subjugate him -- assuming ALE is allowed. In other settings/universes there might be other methods for the omniscient guy to exploit.

Naturally, there are plenty of settings where the omnipotent guy would win. I'm just saying that he doesn't in *every* conceivable setting. 🙂

Originally posted by Magnon
True, that's why I've been using quotation marks around "omnipotent".

Thought so 👆

Originally posted by Magnon
The omnipotent in this thread is not truly omnipotent because he lacks, for example, omniscience. The result of this vs. battle depends on the exact details of what it is that he lacks. If his mind is that of a normal person (at start, anyway, before he can amp it) then ALE can easily subjugate him -- assuming ALE is allowed. In other settings/universes there might be other methods for the omniscient guy to exploit.

👆 👆

Originally posted by Magnon
Naturally, there are plenty of settings where the omnipotent guy would win. I'm just saying that he doesn't in *every* conceivable setting. 🙂

I def agree here.

Also, we should mention the 4th wall breaking, comic relief characters... their power sort of comes from the knowledge, too... awareness of being fictional characters... and - depending on the character - allows them to do plenty of crazy shit.

Then there are writer-like characters, who also break the rules in a similar way, often to a larger extent.

Originally posted by Magnon
ALE is a metaphysical property of DCU; if you know it you can use it. Thus the omniscient guy would be able to use it (assuming that the DCU metaphysics is allowed here).

So it boils down to how fast the omniscient guy can activate it. His thought processes would be infinitely fast (you can't have omniscience otherwise) whereas the "omnipotent" dude in this scenario is limited to forming thoughts like a normal person (at least, unless and until he wishes to have accelerated speed of thought -- but this is an action in itself, and takes time).

Darkseid, in possession of ALE, could enslave ppl without much delay at all.

Actually, Darkseid only did that AFTER his minions had corrupted the world with the ALE. In short, they had to recite the whole ALE out.

Oracle experienced a few moments of it, and was able to shut the Internet down:

Am pretty confident that an omnipotent, who is in a fight, could think 'die' in the same timeframe.

It doesn't really make sense to think of omnipotence and omniscience as seperate attributes. Omniscience isn't "just" pansophy, it's an uncompromisable understanding of absolutely everything.

Suppose you have two entities, an omnipotent and an omniscient. Then, does the Omnipotent have the power to deviate from the Omniscient's predictions? If he doesn't then he's not omnipotent, and if he does then the Omniscient isn't omniscient.

This is why the Doctrine of Divine Simplicty is so effecive, because it makes it impossible to test these "attributes" against each other. If omnipotence and omniscience are facets of the same thing and inseparable, then we avoid the contradictions that arise from trying to figure out which of these attributes are "more absolute."

And this is not something that we has to be defined that way, it follows from aseity. If omnipotence and omniscience are separate parts then whatever entity if composed of these parts aren't a se (since he'd depend on these parts).

Originally posted by Magnon
The power of ALE is in the equation, not in the person using it. Simply knowing it is enough (within DCU).

If the "omnipotent" is under the influence of ALE he can no longer think "no". His free will has been removed and his mind is completely subjugated.

One further thing: it only enslaves you to Darkseid.

The whole point of the ALE is that it proves beyond all doubt, that Darkseid is. Nothing else matters, DS is the ultimate power over everything. That's why even though his minions knew the ALE (they had to, in order to broadcast it), people weren't enslaved to them, but to DS.

If Plastic Man recited it, Power Girl isn't suddenly going to be his slave. She'll be Darkseid's.