Count Nefaria Vs Hercules, speed equalised, no heat vision

Well actually no. I saw what I thought was an official appraisal on the Official handbook entry online. If it is not accurate compared to the official appraisal then I was wrong. But do simmer down. Count Nefaria as I have consistently stated has zero combat training according to the very comic books that he had been in. When Count Nefaria fought Thor he was an inexperienced combatant. Instead of bullshitting just show me otherwise.

Then while you are at it, please factor in the equalized speed, without the long range advantages. What do you have?

No more bullshit, because I have very little time to rehash the same question that you’ve consistently dodged.

When was Count Nefaria trained above what is expected of Hercules as an Avenger. Without the speed, please keep that in mind.. Hercules is a super powered police officer vs a guy that we know that he can hurt.

How does Count Nefaria in this case, escape having his eyes swollen shut after Hercules keeps hitting him? How does he defend himself from a guy that would be his trainer if they were on the same team?

Remove the abilities that we all know that he is easily able to use, and that he did use.

Originally posted by Smurph
Nefaria's fighting skill is 3, as you've repeatedly pointed out and relied on.

"3" = "Some training"

Meanwhile, Herc is "4", or "Experienced fighter"

Glad we have the handbooks to clear this up! So much for the master martial artist vs the untrained neophyte.

What training? When did Nefaria ever train?

Sounds like the handbook got it wrong.

Originally posted by Stoic
Handbooks give us a clearer picture of what I've been saying all along.

Originally posted by Stoic
Well actually no. I saw what I thought was an official appraisal on the Official handbook entry online. If it is not accurate compared to the official appraisal then I was wrong. But do simmer down. Count Nefaria as I have consistently stated has zero combat training according to the very comic books that he had been in. When Count Nefaria fought Thor he was an inexperienced combatant. Instead of bullshitting just show me otherwise.

Then while you are at it, please factor in the equalized speed, without the long range advantages. What do you have?

No more bullshit, because I have very little time to rehash the same question that you’ve consistently dodged.

When was Count Nefaria trained above what is expected of Hercules as an Avenger. Without the speed, please keep that in mind.. Hercules is a super powered police officer vs a guy that we know that he can hurt.

How does Count Nefaria in this case, escape having his eyes swollen shut after Hercules keeps hitting him? How does he defend himself from a guy that would be his trainer if they were on the same team?

Remove the abilities that we all know that he is easily able to use, and that he did use.

Lol No.

https://bit.ly/3UEeXaE

And to prove what Smurph said about Hercules--

https://bit.ly/3NKl0bC

No, the Handbooks do place Nefaria at a 3. So you're backtracking now? You went from arguing it consistently, to saying that the ranking descriptions I gave must be different when it contradicted your stance, to assuming you used something that wasn't from the Handbooks.

Also look at that, it says he rapidly ages when his powers dwindle, maybe I'm right on thinking he was weakened when the Avengers beat him.

I have dodged nothing. You are either lying, or have poor reading comprehension. I pointed out they either stated or made it clear when Nefaria used his speed. This was consistent. Your worthless opinion that he was using it against Thor because he had it is just that. Worthless. Your "logic" would mean pretty much everyone in every comic universe has speed. YOU are the one dodging. You f ucked yourself over and are now trying to pretend you didn't.

If speed is equalizes, no heat vision and Herc is the better fighter, How much stronger and more invulnerable/tougher is the count over Herc?

If I was significantly stronger and more durable than the best mma fighter then I would easily stomp them, assuming speed is equalized (because they would be faster than me).

So Nefaria wins. But if Herc was twice as fast or faster then I can see him winning.

Originally posted by Diesldude
If speed is equalizes, no heat vision and Herc is the better fighter, How much stronger and more invulnerable/tougher is the count over Herc?

Lets expand on this a bit.

"Prime" Nefaria took on Wasp, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Vision and Thor. He did very well against the team, but eventually lost.

How did Nef's performance compare to Hulk, in all the times he fought a similar lineup?

How does Herc normally do against Hulk?

Originally posted by Diesldude
If speed is equalizes, no heat vision and Herc is the better fighter, How much stronger and more invulnerable/tougher is the count over Herc?

Not much, because we know that hat Thor was able to hurt him with his fist. This of course happened under normal circumstances. I'd truly love to see a combatant that has near to no experience fight someone capable of teaching them how to fight, and come out the winner.

But he does have experience. And training.

Per the source you keep citing.

Originally posted by Stoic
Not much, because we know that hat Thor was able to hurt him with his fist. This of course happened under normal circumstances. I'd truly love to see a combatant that has near to no experience fight someone capable of teaching them how to fight, and come out the winner.

Remember Captain America was on that Avengers team in the thick of the fight, he's far above the count in skill and Nefaria wrecked him so badly that Steve gave his shield to Simon to help him fight Nefaria, but I assume you're referring to skilled superhumans.

Originally posted by Smurph
But he does have experience. And training.

Per the source you keep citing.

What training? His combat stats are exactly what I said that I saw online. This guy has no combat skills, and relies wholly upon his wide range of abilities in combat.

In Herc’s case it would be his speed under normal circumstances that would make it much more difficult to win against Nefaria, because of his speed and laser vision creating stuns, which allow him to dominate the fight. Without these advantages, Nefaria will truly be left wondering around in the dark, as his eyes would be shut closed.

Herc could begin off with a knee to the nuts, or whatever opening he fancies. I’d like to point out that the chances of first attack is often granted to the more experienced combatant for obvious reasons. We know that he’d do it. He’s done it. Hercules has near planetary level strength just like many other herald level characters. Nefaria is no unleashed Hulk, he is far weaker. An Unleashed Hulk transcends herald level durability. Thor was able to hurt Nefaria, which is a clear enough indicator to assume that Hercules isn’t too weak to hurt him as well.

Experience is key, because experienced fighters look for angles to exploit, and this just isn’t something that you stumble upon, you have to have known combat.

By canon, Hercules knows combat. He’s a legal government agent, a super cop, against a bar room brawler at best. Avengers are always training. Canon facts. Nefaria has no formal training, and he’s fighting Hercules at his own speed. Hercules is actually strong enough to place Nefaria in serious trouble. The Visions full weight affected him, and Hercules can hit a lot harder than the Vision, or Wonder Man.

Simon tested the weight that Thor trained with, he wasn’t able to handle it.

Originally posted by Smurph
Nefaria's fighting skill is 3, as you've repeatedly pointed out and relied on.

"3" = "Some training"

Meanwhile, Herc is "4", or "Experienced fighter"

Glad we have the handbooks to clear this up! So much for the master martial artist vs the untrained neophyte.

Originally posted by Stoic
Not much, because we know that hat Thor was able to hurt him with his fist. This of course happened under normal circumstances. I'd truly love to see a combatant that has near to no experience fight someone capable of teaching them how to fight, and come out the winner.

This has already been addressed and you dodge it. Nefaria went from being effected to no selling. Could be confidence effecting his powers, could be the writer or artist or both just did a poor job of portraying things by Nefaria saying he was unprepared or however it was worded.

Originally posted by Stoic
What training? His combat stats are exactly what I said that I saw online. This guy has no combat skills, and relies wholly upon his wide range of abilities in combat.

In Herc’s case it would be his speed under normal circumstances that would make it much more difficult to win against Nefaria, because of his speed and laser vision creating stuns, which allow him to dominate the fight. Without these advantages, Nefaria will truly be left wondering around in the dark, as his eyes would be shut closed.

Herc could begin off with a knee to the nuts, or whatever opening he fancies. I’d like to point out that the chances of first attack is often granted to the more experienced combatant for obvious reasons. We know that he’d do it. He’s done it. Hercules has near planetary level strength just like many other herald level characters. Nefaria is no unleashed Hulk, he is far weaker. An Unleashed Hulk transcends herald level durability. Thor was able to hurt Nefaria, which is a clear enough indicator to assume that Hercules isn’t too weak to hurt him as well.

Experience is key, because experienced fighters look for angles to exploit, and this just isn’t something that you stumble upon, you have to have known combat.

By canon, Hercules knows combat. He’s a legal government agent, a super cop, against a bar room brawler at best. Avengers are always training. Canon facts. Nefaria has no formal training, and he’s fighting Hercules at his own speed. Hercules is actually strong enough to place Nefaria in serious trouble. The Visions full weight affected him, and Hercules can hit a lot harder than the Vision, or Wonder Man.

Simon tested the weight that Thor trained with, he wasn’t able to handle it.

This is just retarded. Your own argument is a complete oxymoron. If what you used online backed your case he would be a 1/7. So you get owned by your own argument, then get owned again. Debating you is like debating someone who believes the Earth is flat and genuinely thinks it and thinks he's dominating the debate. Except the Flat Earther does a better job than you.

You have nothing worth a single f uck on the speed argument, so you say he used his speed against Thor just because he had it despite that contradicts the comics.

Doesn't matter how skilled you are, you're gonna get your ass kicked by the chimp. GG.

Originally posted by Stoic
What training? His combat stats are exactly what I said that I saw online. This guy has no combat skills, and relies wholly upon his wide range of abilities in combat.

In Herc’s case it would be his speed under normal circumstances that would make it much more difficult to win against Nefaria, because of his speed and laser vision creating stuns, which allow him to dominate the fight. Without these advantages, Nefaria will truly be left wondering around in the dark, as his eyes would be shut closed.

Herc could begin off with a knee to the nuts, or whatever opening he fancies. I’d like to point out that the chances of first attack is often granted to the more experienced combatant for obvious reasons. We know that he’d do it. He’s done it. Hercules has near planetary level strength just like many other herald level characters. Nefaria is no unleashed Hulk, he is far weaker. An Unleashed Hulk transcends herald level durability. Thor was able to hurt Nefaria, which is a clear enough indicator to assume that Hercules isn’t too weak to hurt him as well.

Experience is key, because experienced fighters look for angles to exploit, and this just isn’t something that you stumble upon, you have to have known combat.

By canon, Hercules knows combat. He’s a legal government agent, a super cop, against a bar room brawler at best. Avengers are always training. Canon facts. Nefaria has no formal training, and he’s fighting Hercules at his own speed. Hercules is actually strong enough to place Nefaria in serious trouble. The Visions full weight affected him, and Hercules can hit a lot harder than the Vision, or Wonder Man.

Simon tested the weight that Thor trained with, he wasn’t able to handle it.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Yeah, I think he was considerably above Thor. The story is littered with "stronger than the strongest guys" all throughout and the writer couldn't be more blatant.

"Not even Hulk could"

"Not even Thor would"

Then Thor: "Casual ease which even I cannot match"

Same Thor says he has not fought somebody like him since the Destroyer:

And then he charges his hammer and tries to hit Nefaria, only for the latter to be stronger than he can hit even with Mjolnir.

And just before Vision came, Nefaria had Thor on the ground, but went for Mjolnir, then got distracted:

I think he was pretty clearly supposed to be physically > Thor/Hulk and more towards Destroyer tier.

It's why I asked how do people think Thor would do against Morg physically [i.e. no energy absorbtion or estorics] because....I think he'd do very well. I think he'd beat the shit out of Morg.

As for Thor, lol

Can't remember the book, but I seem to remember classic Ironman giving a good fight to Hercules. IM was holding his own pretty good.

Originally posted by Smurph

First of all, Wonder Man and Goliath, the heavy hitters of the second story, were out of the fight. Wanda was their "big gun", and she wasn't nearly the powerhouse she'd become later.

Secondly, Nefaria lost outright. All the talk about his strength relative to Hulk is just that, talk, hyperbole. Compare with how Hulk actually performs against teams.

Because Hulk has many, many fights against stacked teams.

Originally posted by Stoic
Not much, because we know that hat Thor was able to hurt him with his fist. This of course happened under normal circumstances. I'd truly love to see a combatant that has near to no experience fight someone capable of teaching them how to fight, and come out the winner.