Originally posted by StoicHere you go:
I'd truly love to see a combatant that has near to no experience fight someone capable of teaching them how to fight, and come out the winner.
Originally posted by Smurph
https://imgur.io/1N5TZoI?rIs that pankration? mmm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Based on handbooks, I believe both Nefaria and Hulk are the same in strength, a 7.
Strength is a 7, but we know that the Hulk’s strength dials continue to rise as the battle continues. They are Class 100 characters, just like Hercules and Thor are. Count Nefaria has a combat rating of 3. When we remove his speed, and laser vision, we must also adjust his Combat rating. I give him a 1.5, or less. He’s basically a bar room brawler vs an experienced and trained Super Police Officer.
We all know that the Avengers train regularly. Count Nefaria has no formal training, and relies wholly upon his powers.
Originally posted by Diesldude
And the count wasn’t nerfed in that fight.
That’s what I’ve been saying all along. The Count is nerfed in this case. I never suggested that Hercules would defeat him without the nerf, but these guys don’t seem to comprehend the nature of the OP, and will attempt to give Nefaria skills that he simply has never possessed.
Hercules would WTF own his ass to the point of embarrassment. We know that Nefaria can be hurt by Class 100’s.
Originally posted by Stoic
Strength is a 7, but we know that the Hulk’s strength dials continue to rise as the battle continues. They are Class 100 characters, just like Hercules and Thor are. Count Nefaria has a combat rating of 3. When we remove his speed, and laser vision, we must also adjust his Combat rating. I give him a 1.5, or less. He’s basically a bar room brawler vs an experienced and trained Super Police Officer.We all know that the Avengers train regularly. Count Nefaria has no formal training, and relies wholly upon his powers.
That’s what I’ve been saying all along. The Count is nerfed in this case. I never suggested that Hercules would defeat him without the nerf, but these guys don’t seem to comprehend the nature of the OP, and will attempt to give Nefaria skills that he simply has never possessed.
Hercules would WTF own his ass to the point of embarrassment. We know that Nefaria can be hurt by Class 100’s.
I am going solely off handbooks, not comics. Seems to be the thing.
When we remove his speed, and laser vision, we must also adjust his Combat rating
The stat is fighting skill. It is a separate stat from speed, and from energy projection.
A fighting skill of 3 means some training. Hercules is only one point higher, at a 4. You are the one who based your position on the handbooks, and that is what they say.
- changing "fighting skill" to "combat rating"
- saying fighting skill would drop alongside speed and energy projection
- saying that supports your stance that there's a massive gulf in combat ability between Nefaria and Hercules
^ all things you made up
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Phil Urich has no formal training to speak of, to the best of my knowledge.
Did you check what his Goblin gear allows him in terms of speed and durability? Wasn’t that Hercules with far lower stats, which means that he would be slower, softer, more human? He was fighting someone well above his strength level, speed level, durability level, etc.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I am going solely off handbooks, not comics. Seems to be the thing.
I used a handbook entry to show that Nefaria has no skills. That 3 would be reduced if he lost speed, and laser vision. He is nerfed here. Phil was buffed. See the difference?
Originally posted by Smurph
The stat is fighting skill. It is a separate stat from speed, and from energy projection.A fighting skill of 3 means some training. Hercules is only one point higher, at a 4. You are the one who based your position on the handbooks, and that is what they say.
- changing "fighting skill" to "combat rating"
- saying fighting skill would drop alongside speed and energy projection
- saying that supports your stance that there's a massive gulf in combat ability between Nefaria and Hercules^ all things you made up
The fighting skill is buffed by his speed. Take it away, and he becomes less effective as a combatant. If not, no one should ever argue speed again. No one better ever mention long range tactical advantages again either.
Originally posted by StoicNo, that is not what those words mean in plain English, nor what the levels mean. Refer to the legend:
The fighting skill is buffed by his speed. Take it away, and he becomes less effective as a combatant. If not, no one should ever argue speed again. No one better ever mention long range tactical advantages again either.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998^ so each tier of "fighting skill" is entirely about h2h proficiency, and irrespective of the other stats.
Actually. I think this is from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Book of the Dead
Alternatively: sure Stoic, fighting skill means overall combat effectiveness. Per the same handbook that you're relying on, Sentry's combat effectiveness is a whopping 2. Yikes.
Originally posted by Stoic
Did you check what his Goblin gear allows him in terms of speed and durability? Wasn’t that Hercules with far lower stats, which means that he would be slower, softer, more human? He was fighting someone well above his strength level, speed level, durability level, etc.I used a handbook entry to show that Nefaria has no skills. That 3 would be reduced if he lost speed, and laser vision. He is nerfed here. Phil was buffed. See the difference?
Herc had pretty good gear in that scene too. I'd know, I used him in a BZ.
Fighting skill isn't buffed by speed or strength. Sentry is at a 2, and the handbook literally spells out that it is h2h proficiency, i.e. how skilled they are.
You're alll being disingenuous .
Stoic and the handbook were clearly meant to bolster his point about Nefaria's speed being instrumental to his combat effectiveness. He failed miserably in that.
But his point stands, with equalised speed Nefaria is not the same threat he would be, if he had his speed. Skill suddenly becomes the determining factor, in addition to strength and durability gaps.
And it's ironically often pointed out by those arguing against Stoic, how skill evens the odds against mere strength and durability. Black Panther, Iron Fist, Dare Devil, Slade Wilson, Shang Chi are all proof of this.
Is Nefaria stronger and tougher to Herc, then Thing is to Shang, or Cage is to T'challa?
Did not Herc hold his own with Elektra?
Originally posted by cdtm
You're alll being disingenuous .Stoic and the handbook were clearly meant to bolster his point about Nefaria's speed being instrumental to his combat effectiveness. He failed miserably in that.
But his point stands, with equalised speed Nefaria is not the same threat he would be, if he had his speed. Skill suddenly becomes the determining factor, in addition to strength and durability gaps.
And it's ironically often pointed out by those arguing against Stoic, how skill evens the odds against mere strength and durability. Black Panther, Iron Fist, Dare Devil, Slade Wilson, Shang Chi are all proof of this.
Is Nefaria stronger and tougher to Herc, then Thing is to Shang, or Cage is to T'challa?
Did not Herc hold his own with Elektra?
But he's making that up on the ratings because he can't support his position. He has yet to show that Nefaria used speed against Thor. His only argument is "Nefaria had it so he must have used it" and assuming catching Mjolnir strike is a speed feat. So no, his point doesn't stand. Sentry has a lower combat rating than Nefaria. Is he slower?
Originally posted by Delta1938
But he's making that up on the ratings because he can't support his position. He has yet to show that Nefaria used speed against Thor. His only argument is "Nefaria had it so he must have used it" and assuming catching Mjolnir strike is a speed feat. So no, his point doesn't stand. Sentry has a lower combat rating than Nefaria. Is he slower?
Also, cdtm is just plain wrong. Why mention all these skilled MAs.....when Herc doesn't have 10% of their skill feats?
Stoic knows he has no skill feats to show for Get, only lip service. So tried to use handbooks.
But the handbooks themselves don't paint a picture of Her mastering even one martial art, not even the one he invented.
Hell,. JARVIS has a higher skill rating (it isn't even combat rating, but skill) than Sentry. He is a 3, same as Nefaria. Falcon is a 4, same as Hercules.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85 Also, cdtm is just plain wrong. Why mention all these skilled MAs.....when Herc doesn't have 10% of their skill feats?Stoic knows he has no skill feats to show for Get, only lip service. So tried to use handbooks.
But the handbooks themselves don't paint a picture of Her mastering even one martial art, not even the one he invented.
Hell,. JARVIS has a higher skill rating (it isn't even combat rating, but skill) than Sentry. He is a 3, same as Nefaria. Falcon is a 4, same as Hercules. [/B]
Hercules identifies as a woman now? Well with how Marvel is I guess that means Nefaria loses.