Count Nefaria Vs Hercules, speed equalised, no heat vision

Started by Smurph30 pages
Smurph tu quoqumber

Cdtm, as a birthday present, I'll reply to this post.

Originally posted by cdtm
You're alll being disingenuous .

Stoic and the handbook were clearly meant to bolster his point about Nefaria's speed being instrumental to his combat effectiveness. He failed miserably in that.

But his point stands, with equalised speed Nefaria is not the same threat he would be, if he had his speed. Skill suddenly becomes the determining factor, in addition to strength and durability gaps.

Nice try, but that wasn't Stoic's point. Everybody agrees that, all else being equal, losing super speed makes a character less powerful (or, uh, "combat effective"😉.

Nah, Stoic spelled out why he kept referring to handbooks:

Originally posted by Stoic
Handbooks give us a clearer picture of what I've been saying all along. Count Nefaria was never a fighter before gaining his powers and never once did he become a martial arts. We aren't gonna Ng to give him skills that he does not have. Hercules would brutally put him through hell.
He's relying on handbooks to prove that Nef is the neophyte/non-student/Liberace to Herc's master/teacher/warrior.

And then you look at the handbook and it says... none of that. Stoic keeps repeating that "Avengers train all the time as a matter of course but Nefaria has never trained a day in his life" ... and yet, according to those pesky handbooks, Nefaria has as much training as your average Avenger and more than some (Sentry, Wonderman, Scott Lang).

Sure, Nef is only a 3. Certainly no Cap (7) but then again, neither is Herc (...4).

Fact is, Nefaria at his best is a highly effective teambuster. We have no reason to think that he's all muscle and zero skill but for Stoic loathing his sweet, sweet sense of style.

Originally posted by cdtm
And it's ironically often pointed out by those arguing against Stoic, how skill evens the odds against mere strength and durability. Black Panther, Iron Fist, Dare Devil, Slade Wilson, Shang Chi are all proof of this.

Is Nefaria stronger and tougher to Herc, then Thing is to Shang, or Cage is to T'challa?

Again, nice try, but Herc is not Panther, IF, DD, Deathstroke, or Shang. Each of those characters utterly spanks Hercules in a skill contest. This argument is, as you say, disingenuous.

Originally posted by cdtm
Did not Herc hold his own with Elektra?
Herc crossed blades for one panel and blocked some shuriken with his shield. So, uh, no.

Stoic Avenger

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, cdtm is just plain wrong. Why mention all these skilled MAs.....when Herc doesn't have 10% of their skill feats?

Stoic knows he has no skill feats to show for Get, only lip service. So tried to use handbooks.

But the handbooks themselves don't paint a picture of Her mastering even one martial art, not even the one he invented.

Hell,. JARVIS has a higher skill rating (it isn't even combat rating, but skill) than Sentry. He is a 3, same as Nefaria. Falcon is a 4, same as Hercules.

Not at all. It is actually canon to the character, and states that he has skills. I told you why I used the handbook entry. You didn't want to acknowledge the comic statement behind Nefaria, so I figured that a good book entry might be able to penetrate that solid object being held up by your pencil neck

Delta1938 True King of House of El

Stoic moving the goal post when the only thing he thinks he can prove backfires.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract
Originally posted by Stoic
Not at all. It is actually canon to the character, and states that he has skills. I told you why I used the handbook entry. You didn't want to acknowledge the comic statement behind Nefaria, so I figured that a good book entry might be able to penetrate that solid object being held up by your pencil neck

Except your good book entry didn't prove what you said.

Again: it's not a combat rating,it's a measure of their skill. Understand yet?

And according to the good book entry, Hercules isn't a master of anything. Understand yet?

And according to the good book entry, the SKILL gap between the two combatants isn't as wide as you claim, understand yet? Lol.

Stoic Avenger

Did Phil fight the mortal Hercules, or the Immortal Hercules?

Delta1938 True King of House of El

In the early 2000's the Marvel website bios said Hercules invented Greco-Roman wrestling. Problem is Greco-Roman wrestling was invented in France in the 1800's, not ancient Greece. Moral of the story, sometimes those who write official sources don't know what the f ucking f uck they're talking about, so they shouldn't be your main argument.

Stoic Avenger

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except your good book entry didn't prove what you said.

Again: it's not a combat rating,it's a measure of their skill. Understand yet?

And according to the good book entry, Hercules isn't a master of anything. Understand yet?

And according to the good book entry, the SKILL gap between the two combatants isn't as wide as you claim, understand yet? Lol.

What skill? His combat score says his skill is nearly non existent due to his combined powers making it as high as it did. Read his appearances and stop taking sides. Something we both know that you can't do, but do try.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract
Originally posted by Stoic
Did Phil fight the mortal Hercules, or the Immortal Hercules?

Who do you think?

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract
Originally posted by Stoic
What skill? His combat score says his skill is nearly non existent due to his combined powers making it as high as it did. Read his appearances and stop taking sides. Something we both know that you can't do, but do try.

What combat score? The one that the good book says is a 3? That's his skill, not combat score.

Stoic Avenger
Originally posted by Delta1938
In the early 2000's the Marvel website bios said Hercules invented Greco-Roman wrestling. Problem is Greco-Roman wrestling was invented in France in the 1800's, not ancient Greece. Moral of the story, sometimes those who write official sources don't know what the f ucking f uck they're talking about, so they shouldn't be your main argument.

Not on Marvel Earth. It's exactly as stated. You're such a liar that you'd attempt to spin anything that goes against your narrative. Try again.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract
Originally posted by Stoic
Not on Marvel Earth. It's exactly as stated. You're such a liar that you'd attempt to spin anything that goes against your narrative. Try again.

So he invented it, yet isn't even a master of it according to your good book entry.

That's kinda embarrassing.

Stoic Avenger

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So he invented it, yet isn't even a master of it according to your good book entry.

That's kinda embarrassing.

You should actually be embarrassed. Using characters at their worst. Clean your shit up and get back to me with a relevant comparison.

Stoic Avenger

While you're at it, tell me why Nefaria wins.

Delta1938 True King of House of El
Originally posted by Stoic
Not on Marvel Earth. It's exactly as stated. You're such a liar that you'd attempt to spin anything that goes against your narrative. Try again.

😆 First show it was on Marvel Earth. Then prove I lied. If you fail to do both, you concede to being the liar.

The website used to show it, then changed to Pankration at some point. Now it just says "wrestling." And no, that doesn't prove you right because the Greeks had wrestling before they had Pankration(which wrestling is part of).

https://www.marvel.com/characters/hercules-heracles

Same with the Handbooks.

https://bit.ly/3NKl0bC

Unless you can prove otherwise, what most likely happened was whoever wrote the bio just assumed Greco-Roman wrestling was ancient, put it down, and later someone realized the error but knew/read mythology said Hercules invented Pankration.

Then if you manage to prove it was invented by Hercules in Marvel, you have to prove I lied.

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Smurph
Well, each of those characters has way, way more showings of skill overcoming a physical gap than Hercules has, so... again, not a helpful comparison for Hercules
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You are assuming my argument.

My point was that.....there were no scans of Herc's skill feats. Not Cap level, Punisher level, even Hawkeye level!!!!

You hardly post these days - a few days ago (weeks?) there was a thread asking for Herc's skill feats (not lip service). People are coming in here with that thread fresh in our minds....context, as always, matters.

Again, you're both asking for Hercules' skill showings but you cannot tell me exactly what level of skill would be necessary to prove. I fully expect you to move the goalposts at this point once I do so. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

I will admit though that one of my pet peeves is when someone takes my limited participation in a thread and projects other people's arguments onto me. So if I did it here -- this thread blew up so I can't be bothered to look -- then I apologize.

So I'll go out on a limb.

Hercules appeared to keep up with Elektra in Herc #10 when he was reduced to a base mortal. Greg Pak and Fred Van Lente were clearly stroking the balls of "world's greatest mortal warrior", but it's there. If you've read Marvel extensively, you'll find random statements where Hercules skill is considered exemplary. Hell, Hercules mentioned he's the best Avenger at vibro-staff workouts when he was sparring in a random Thunderstrike issue. But that could also be him boasting.

ODG Find Your Own Fire

But beyond that, Hercules has had fights with Thor and Hulk where his skill is a large factor. And ironically, the one fight I revisit is one where he got his butt handed to him for an entire issue by Mindless Hulk. But it's impressive to me because he had his immortality and superstrength stripped of him at the time. You cannot tell me this showing isn't impressive for Hercules:

Originally posted by ODG
[b]XXVIII. HULK'S FIGHTS (cont'd)

======
Hercules
======

Mindless Hulk vs Hercules (mortal), from Incredible Hulk/Hercules: Unleashed #1:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHercules04HulkHerculesUnleashed1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHercules05.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHercules06.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHercules07.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHercules08.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHercules09.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHercules10.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHercules11.jpg [/B]

Was he a purely base mortal like when he fought Elektra? Clearly not. But whatever you assume his level of strength was, it's safe to say that the gap btw mortal Hercules and Mindless Hulk was far wider than immortal Hercules vs Count Nefaria.

Now reimagine the mortal Hercules vs Mindless Hulk fight and grant him as much a relative strength amp you think would be needed to honestly compare how immortal Hercules might fight Count Nefaria. Another 20 tons? Another 25% percent? Whatever it is, I doubt it's wildly disproportionate.

Hercules hasn't had resort to fighting skill very often once he turned immortal, so I understand why people assume he's just a dumb brick. But he clearly resorts to skill and leverage when he has to. Heck, he fights dirty as heck too when he doesn't have to. There are few superbrick comic characters I believe would resort to nut-kicking and Hercules is in the top three. Count Nefaria ain't no-selling that sh1t. And I remain unconvinced that Count Nefaria's ill-defined strength advantage renders this a non-fight.

Stoic Avenger

Originally posted by Delta1938
😆 First show it was on Marvel Earth. Then prove I lied. If you fail to do both, you concede to being the liar.

The website used to show it, then changed to Pankration at some point. Now it just says "wrestling." And no, that doesn't prove you right because the Greeks had wrestling before they had Pankration(which wrestling is part of).

https://www.marvel.com/characters/hercules-heracles

Same with the Handbooks.

https://bit.ly/3NKl0bC

Unless you can prove otherwise, what most likely happened was whoever wrote the bio just assumed Greco-Roman wrestling was ancient, put it down, and later someone realized the error but knew/read mythology said Hercules invented Pankration.

Then if you manage to prove it was invented by Hercules in Marvel, you have to prove I lied.

Why do you think Nefaria wins? And yes we all know how you spin things. It's something that you and your team are well known for. Again, why does Nefaria win under these conditions?

Stoic Avenger

Originally posted by ODG
Again, you're both asking for Hercules' skill showings but you cannot tell me exactly what level of skill would be necessary to prove. I fully expect you to move the goalposts at this point once I do so. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

I will admit though that one of my pet peeves is when someone takes my limited participation in a thread and projects other people's arguments onto me. So if I did it here -- this thread blew up so I can't be bothered to look -- then I apologize.

So I'll go out on a limb.

Hercules appeared to keep up with Elektra in Herc #10 when he was reduced to a base mortal. Greg Pak and Fred Van Lente were clearly stroking the balls of "world's greatest mortal warrior", but it's there. If you've read Marvel extensively, you'll find random statements where Hercules skill is considered exemplary. Hell, Hercules mentioned he's the best Avenger at vibro-staff workouts when he was sparring in a random Thunderstrike issue. But that could also be him boasting.

Facts.

Delta1938 True King of House of El
Originally posted by Stoic
Why do you think Nefaria wins? And yes we all know how you spin things. It's something that you and your team are well known for. Again, why does Nefaria win under these conditions?

First, you are not even acknowledging me telling you to prove Hercules created Greco-Roman wrestling in Marvel then proved I lied(meaning I knew otherwise, if he did, and purposely said he didn't).

Second, I already said why. The strength gap. And I've already gone over circular arguments you fail with.

So do you actually have anything showing he created Greco-Roman wrestling, or did you lie to accuse me of lying?

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by ODG
Again, you're both asking for Hercules' skill showings but you cannot tell me exactly what level of skill would be necessary to prove. I fully expect you to move the goalposts at this point once I do so. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
I just don't know how to answer that question ("what level of skill"?).

I'm not holding back in a strategic move to keep the goalposts out of reach, but I can't go halfway to making your case for you. As I see it, if you take the position that Herc's skill is enough to close the gap, then the onus is on you to:
a) prove his skill, and
b) prove that it's enough to close the gap.

I don't need to go ahead and concede point b) just to get a discussion on point a).

That said...

Originally posted by ODG
I will admit though that one of my pet peeves is when someone takes my limited participation in a thread and projects other people's arguments onto me. So if I did it here -- this thread blew up so I can't be bothered to look -- then I apologize.

So I'll go out on a limb.

Cheers.

Originally posted by ODG
Hercules appeared to keep up with Elektra in Herc #10 when he was reduced to a base mortal. Greg Pak and Fred Van Lente were clearly stroking the balls of "world's greatest mortal warrior", but it's there. If you've read Marvel extensively, you'll find random statements where Hercules skill is considered exemplary. Hell, Hercules mentioned he's the best Avenger at vibro-staff workouts when he was sparring in a random Thunderstrike issue. But that could also be him boasting.
I think "appeared" is doing a lot of work in that first sentence. Herc and Elektra clashing was barely a skirmish, and certainly not enough to be a skill comparison. They sorta-almost-fought but, more accurately, Elektra gave some half-assed attacks while telling him that he's now powerless and he should leave Brooklyn because he won't save it. So it was truly just a shot across the bow. And of course it doesn't work; Hercules bravely defends himself and says he's still a hero even without his powers. He gets one cool moment where the Sword of Peleus cut through her sai, but that's consistent - it did the same thing to Hobgoblin's fire sword and Herc claimed it could cut molecules.

All to say, whether you think she was making a lame intimidation attempt or just assessing his abilities, you can't read that scene and tell me she was exactly pressed. I suppose someone might counter and say the same about Herc, but again, that just leaves us with zero comparison between them. She could be one tier above him in skill, or stratospherically so.