Originally posted by SmurphLet's ask this another way. How much more superstrength does Count Nefaria have over Hercules exactly?
I just don't know how to answer that question ("what level of skill"?).I'm not holding back in a strategic move to keep the goalposts out of reach, but I can't go halfway to making your case for you. As I see it, if you take the position that Herc's skill is enough to close the gap, then the onus is on you to:
a) prove his skill, and
b) prove that it's enough to close the gap.I don't need to go ahead and concede point b) just to get a discussion on point a).
That said...
Cheers.I think "appeared" is doing a lot of work in that first sentence. Herc and Elektra clashing was barely a skirmish, and certainly not enough to be a skill comparison. They sorta-almost-fought but, more accurately, Elektra gave some half-assed attacks while telling him that he's now powerless and he should leave Brooklyn because he won't save it. So it was truly just a shot across the bow. And of course it doesn't work; Hercules bravely defends himself and says he's still a hero even without his powers. He gets one cool moment where the Sword of Peleus cut through her sai, but that's consistent - it did the same thing to Hobgoblin's fire sword and Herc claimed it could cut molecules.
All to say, whether you think she was making a lame intimidation attempt or just assessing his abilities, you can't read that scene and tell me she was exactly pressed. I suppose someone might counter and say the same about Herc, but again, that just leaves us with zero comparison between them. She could be one tier above him in skill, or stratospherically so. [/B]
Originally posted by Smurph
mmm
"Your team." I missed that, good catch.
That now makes this look far more suspect.
Originally posted by Stoic
I see that you've found your team. Must've had something to do with skin color.
Stoic said this to Stilt, and I had Initially taken it as him responding to Stilt being racist. But now this got me thinking Stoic is a race baiting victim player.
Originally posted by ODGPeak Nefaria was substantially stronger than Hercules, imo.
Let's ask this another way. How much more superstrength does Count Nefaria have over Hercules exactly?
Thor seems like the best comparison, given his and Hercules' lengthy history. It would be a huge upgrade for Hercules to casually dismiss Thor like this while also battling the rest of that team
Nor do I see Herc ever simply palming a charged-up Mjolnir strike
"You didn't believe that anyone could stop your hammer with his bare hands, did you?"
The comic was comparing Nefaria to the Destroyer, so, again, substantially above Herc.
Originally posted by Delta1938I really wasn't highlighting it as a race dog whistle; I just wondered who the team was.
"Your team." I missed that, good catch.That now makes this look far more suspect.
Stoic said this to Stilt, and I had Initially taken it as him responding to Stilt being racist. But now this got me thinking Stoic is a race baiting victim player.
I'm sure Stilt will drop by soon to clarify what Stoic meant.
Originally posted by Delta1938
"Your team." I missed that, good catch.That now makes this look far more suspect.
Stoic said this to Stilt, and I had Initially taken it as him responding to Stilt being racist. But now this got me thinking Stoic is a race baiting victim player.
I’m guessing that you purposely missed what Stilt said about being black? Put on your hat, and go to your corner.
Originally posted by Stoic
You should actually be embarrassed. Using characters at their worst. Clean your shit up and get back to me with a relevant comparison.
How am I using characters at their worst, by using their handbook entry WHICH YOU FOCUSSED ON?
The handbooks say he isn't a master of any fighting style. Look it up.
Originally posted by Stoic
I’m guessing that you purposely missed what Stilt said about being black? Put on your hat, and go to your corner.
I'm guessing YOU purposely missed what I said? Your use of it again, not just to Stilt. I even said Stilt was being racist. But you have accused it when there was none, so I wouldn't put it past you to just be throwing it around.
Originally posted by Smurph
I really wasn't highlighting it as a race dog whistle; I just wondered who the team was.I'm sure Stilt will drop by soon to clarify what Stoic meant.
Not you. I wondered after noticing since Stoic used "team" twice. Now he's accusing me of purposely missing things when I.....said Stilt was being a c unt. But him using it again makes me wonder if he's just throwing it around. Looks like he's the one purposely ignoring things.
and if you're going to pivot to "that's at full power/skill rankings would change without super speed" then please just skip that step and respond to this post from a few pages ago:
Originally posted by Smurph
No, that is not what those words mean in plain English, nor what the levels mean. Refer to the legend:^ so each tier of "fighting skill" is entirely about h2h proficiency, and irrespective of the other stats.
Alternatively: sure Stoic, fighting skill means overall combat effectiveness. Per the same handbook that you're relying on, Sentry's combat effectiveness is a whopping 2. Yikes.
Originally posted by SmurphThe Avengers woulda been wiped out by the Destroyer. The Avengers have been wiped out by the Destroyer. Destroyer, Ultron, Juggernaut. Count Nefaria isn't on their level.
Peak Nefaria was substantially stronger than Hercules, imo.Thor seems like the best comparison, given his and Hercules' lengthy history. It would be a huge upgrade for Hercules to casually dismiss Thor like this while also battling the rest of that team
Nor do I see Herc ever simply palming a charged-up Mjolnir strike
"You didn't believe that anyone could stop your hammer with his bare hands, did you?"
The comic was comparing Nefaria to the Destroyer, so, again, substantially above Herc.
Stopping a Mjolnir strike is Count Nefaria's single greatest feat though. Could Hercules do that? Probably not. But then one would make that same argument about classic Hyperion, Mindless Hulk, Grog the Godslayer no-selling Mjolnir shots... yet they did.
Holding up the heavens is Hercules single greatest feat though. Could Count Nefaria hold up the heavens for hours? Probably not. But then one would probably make that same argument about Sunspot. Then he goes ahead and helps stop the force of Earth's rotation.
In any event, if you want to say that Count Nefaria's strength advantage is so great, no amount of skill could overcome it, just say it. Because you still haven't confirmed, much less suggested, what level of skill Hercules would require.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Not saying it's your fault -- but any chance we could avoid handbooks?
How am I using characters at their worst, by using their handbook entry WHICH YOU FOCUSSED ON?The handbooks say he isn't a master of any fighting style. Look it up.
These characters have enough on-panel appearances.
Hercules created Pankration w/ Theseus. Not a leap to suggest he was a master of it.
Originally posted by ODG
Not saying it's your fault -- but any chance we could avoid handbooks?These characters have enough on-panel appearances.
Hercules created Pankration w/ Theseus. Not a leap to suggest he was a master of it.
Yeah of course we can avoid handbooks.
Stoic was stubbornly clinging to it, so maybe.....you? can gently show him the error of his ways? Maybe?
Originally posted by ODGWhy would I say that? My position has been that Hercules won't overcome it. That's based off the comics, not off a theoretical line in the sand separating "skilled enough" from "not skilled enough".In any event, if you want to say that Count Nefaria's strength advantage is so great, no amount of skill could overcome it, just say it. Because you still haven't confirmed, much less suggested, what level of skill Hercules would require.
As stated:
Originally posted by Smurph
I just don't know how to answer that question ("what level of skill"?).I'm not holding back in a strategic move to keep the goalposts out of reach, but I can't go halfway to making your case for you. As I see it, if you take the position that Herc's skill is enough to close the gap, then the onus is on you to:
a) prove his skill, and
b) prove that it's enough to close the gap.I don't need to go ahead and concede point b) just to get a discussion on point a).
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Stoic: I was going to be flippant and sh1t on handbooks. But I made respect threads... and didn't even get paid for them. So that would be ludicrously hypocritical and supremely ironic.
Yeah of course we can avoid handbooks.Stoic was stubbornly clinging to it, so maybe.....you? can gently show him the error of his ways? Maybe?
Sticking with comics is like sticking to primary references. Going on to handbooks is like relying on secondary references. People should always be more convinced with primary references. So stick with what's on-panel.
Originally posted by SmurphYou won't say it because I'm implying you want to reserve the ability to move the goalposts. I mean... just disarm the snark. Tell me what level of skill Hercules would need to close the gap and make this a fight.
Why would I say that? My position has been that Hercules won't overcome it. That's based off the comics, not off a theoretical line in the sand separating "skilled enough" from "not skilled enough".As stated:
Or don't. Not like I haven't been calling it out this whole time.
My first intention was to get a better feel for how much stronger everybody believes Count Nefaria is. Then I get allusions to the Destroyer. I loled. At this point though, my intention is to ditch the pretense.
Originally posted by Stoic
I’m guessing that you purposely missed what Stilt said about being black? Put on your hat, and go to your corner.
Wait wait wait... so all this time I thought he was just another white guy from Poland, and he's actually black?
Ok, hin turning on me as hard as he did makes sense now. I mean, his casual misogyny fooled me into a edge lord mentality too, but lines were crossed..
Originally posted by ODGYou seem upset about something.
You won't say it because I'm implying you want to reserve the ability to move the goalposts. I mean... just disarm the snark. Tell me what level of skill Hercules would need to close the gap and make this a fight.Or don't. Not like I haven't been calling it out this whole time.
My first intention was to get a better feel for how much stronger everybody believes Count Nefaria is. Then I get allusions to the Destroyer. I loled. At this point though, my intention is to ditch the pretense.
It's not on me to set up your goalposts. Make your own case.
