Count Nefaria Vs Hercules, speed equalised, no heat vision

Originally posted by Stoic
There you go convincing yourself of things that don’t exist. Ross has the knowledge of a military general. Do you know what that means? It means that if I reduced Count Nefaria and all of the rest of those characters down to Ross’ level, he would beat the shit out of them. He has been trained to kill in unarmed combat. Fighting ability as in know how to fight. You can have a man in a wheel chair with the knowledge of Bruce Lee, but unable to use forms to exercise in his crippled condition, yet if you gave him a body that is capable of performance that knowledge would absolutely be demonstrated. Why because the knowledge still exists.

Did you really think that through? In no reality is a neophyte bar room brawler at best, going to beat a former Olympic wrestling, and pugilist champion that uses fouls. It’s just not a thing. Not when he can actually hurt his opponent.

Nefaria can not fight. Why not just read every early book that he was in. He even talks about his inadequacies in terms of physical combat. He was never a fighter. You really can’t get around that with Nefaria. If this was the Thing, or Black Panther, I’d vote Nefaria, because without gadgets or aid of some type, they don’t possess the physical power to hurt Nefaria, or at least they shouldn’t.

Hercules does though.

You are obviously scoring a 1 in the intelligence section.

Skills are separate from physical stats like strength and speed and durability. This is a fact.

There's nothing about combat ratings or combat scores. Hercules is as skilled as General Ross. This is a fact.

Nefaria scores a 3 in skills. This is a fact.

His strength and eye beams and speed have nothing to do with this score of a 3. This score is for skills, NOT combat rating. This is a fact.

This is what a 3 means.

Nothing to do with his physical stats. He's hardly a neophyte, unless you don't know what neophyte means, I guess.

Nefaria is a 3. According to handbooks, that means he's better trained than a normal person.

Anyone remember when iron man tired Herc out then hit him with mains voltage? Unlimited stamina pfft!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You are obviously scoring a 1 in the intelligence section.

Skills are separate from physical stats like strength and speed and durability. This is a fact.

There's nothing about combat ratings or combat scores. Hercules is as skilled as General Ross. This is a fact.

Nefaria scores a 3 in skills. This is a fact.

His strength and eye beams and speed have nothing to do with this score of a 3. This score is for skills, NOT combat rating. This is a fact.

In this case idiot, Hercules has the physical stats to beat the shit out of Nefaria because not only does he have the stats to hurt Nefaria, but the knowledge to hurt him as well.

You have some nerve calling me stupid, when you are unable to rise to the level of common sense concerning this simplistic issue.

Rulk killed the Abomination with his bare hands, if he fought against the Abomination in human form he;d be one shot killed, but when given a body to exert his knowledge he literally beat him into helplessness and shot the shit out of him killing him. But first he kicked his ass. He then demonstrates Similar style to Krav Maga while demolishing the Savage Hulk, even breaking him arm for good measure.

You don’t remember that right? Rulk was later nerfed due to the hate mail that was being received in the here and now, but that’s neither here nor there, and does little to overturn the submissions that he was clearly knowledgeable of performing on his opponents.

Count Nefaria’s very abilities are what make him dangerous. He relies too heavily upon his super powers. As I’ve stated repeatedly, go back and read all of his earliest appearances, including times that he had no powers. He wasn’t a physical H2H combat. Do you understand what combat knowledge is? How to throw a punch correctly, how to defend against a punch, how to see which angle should be used to exploit an off balanced opponent, how to correctly apply a throw, how to break your fall, how to defend against a mount, etc.

This is what is being stated when Hercules we look at Hercules’ fighting knowledge. You’re disillusioned to believe that Nefaria has a chance under these stipulations.

Originally posted by Stoic
In this case idiot, Hercules has the physical stats to beat the shit out of Nefaria because not only does he have the stats to hurt Nefaria, but the knowledge to hurt him as well.

You have some nerve calling me stupid, when you are unable to rise to the level of common sense concerning this simplistic issue.

Rulk killed the Abomination with his bare hands, if he fought against the Abomination in human form he;d be one shot killed, but when given a body to exert his knowledge he literally beat him into helplessness and shot the shit out of him killing him. But first he kicked his ass. He then demonstrates Similar style to Krav Maga while demolishing the Savage Hulk, even breaking him arm for good measure.

You don’t remember that right? Rulk was later nerfed due to the hate mail that was being received in the here and now, but that’s neither here nor there, and does little to overturn the submissions that he was clearly knowledgeable of performing on his opponents.

Count Nefaria’s very abilities are what make him dangerous. He relies too heavily upon his super powers. As I’ve stated repeatedly, go back and read all of his earliest appearances, including times that he had no powers. He wasn’t a physical H2H combat. Do you understand what combat knowledge is? How to throw a punch correctly, how to defend against a punch, how to see which angle should be used to exploit an off balanced opponent, how to correctly apply a throw, how to break your fall, how to defend against a mount, etc.

This is what is being stated when Hercules we look at Hercules’ fighting knowledge. You’re disillusioned to believe that Nefaria has a chance under these stipulations.

Again, your Herc with godly skill, is.....as skilled as General Ross.

Nefaria is no neophyte, based on the very handbooks YOU brought up. He scores a 3, purely on skill.

Again, read the images I posted clearly detailing what a 3 means. He is no neophyte, or do I need to walk you through this again?

Again, fighting skill is completely separate from physical stats. Nefaria could be powerless; he would still be a 3. He could be amped by the IG; he would STILL be a 3. Do you still need me to make this clearer?

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Anyone remember when iron man tired Herc out then hit him with mains voltage? Unlimited stamina pfft!

Originally posted by lawest9
Yeap.....shocked him on his ankles and KO'ed him.

Stoic taking L after L. Trying to argue it's how effective a fighting the Handbooks say, not how skilled they are, to desperately try and salvage his argument. It is fighting skill that's ranked, not combat effectiveness. Take away Nefaria's speed and it still gives him a 3/7 in fighting skill. Remember Stoic, YOU are the one insisting arguing the Handbooks is valid and YOU are the one arguing against them only because it backfired. But you think you have a leg to stand on calling anyone else an idiot?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes, I am calling you an idiot 😂

Again, your Herc with godly skill, is.....as skilled as General Ross.

Nefaria is no neophyte, based on the very handbooks YOU brought up. He scores a 3, purely on skill.

Again, read the images I posted clearly detailing what a 3 means. He is no neophyte, or do I need to walk you through this again?

Again, fighting skill is completely separate from physical stats. Nefaria could be powerless; he would still be a 3. He could be amped by the IG; he would STILL be a 3. Do you still need me to make this clearer?

Show me iwhere in his history that it specifically states that he was ever trained in combat. As stated, the very character says that he had none, which is the reason for gaining those powers. It was his cheat code to achieve world domination you dishonest idiot.

Even a flipping moron would understand that he uses speed to get a drop on his opponent, he lives in the future while in combat against the opponents that he has been in battle with. This gives him an edge idiot. Taken away, or dropped down in speed becomes a hit on his overall combat performance, but your so filled with bullshit, and dishonesty, that you believe you’ve found angle to exploit.

You’re wrong. Gladiator spelled it out on panel when he defeated Hyperion who had less combat knowledge that he does. You and your lying teammate Delta can’t find one citation detailing Count Nefaria ever learning to actually fight before gaining powers that again he wasn’t born with.

If I gave a guy that never fought before super speed, super strength, super durability, super laser vision, and super flight speed, he wouldn’t need to know how to fight. General Ross is a trained soldier, trained to kill with his bare hands, which is why he killed the Abomination, and easily defeated Savage Hulk on panel.

You pretend as if your flimsy story holds up under the scrutiny placed upon your inability to find any solid evidence supporting the notion that if you took away Nefaria’s powers that he’d be able to defeat Jimmy Olsen if they were the same age.

What relevance to the OP does you flimsy dishonest argument address?

Fighting Skills?

Count Nefaria is rated a 3, because of his powers. If you remove speed, flight, ocular assault, he obviously takes a combat effectiveness hit.

Idiot.

Originally posted by Stoic
Show me iwhere in his history that it specifically states that he was ever trained in combat. As stated, the very character says that he had none, which is the reason for gaining those powers. It was his cheat code to achieve world domination you dishonest idiot.

Even a flipping moron would understand that he uses speed to get a drop on his opponent, he lives in the future while in combat against the opponents that he has been in battle with. This gives him an edge idiot. Taken away, or dropped down in speed becomes a hit on his overall combat performance, but your so filled with bullshit, and dishonesty, that you believe you’ve found angle to exploit.

You’re wrong. Gladiator spelled it out on panel when he defeated Hyperion who had less combat knowledge that he does. You and your lying teammate Delta can’t find one citation detailing Count Nefaria ever learning to actually fight before gaining powers that again he wasn’t born with.

If I gave a guy that never fought before super speed, super strength, super durability, super laser vision, and super flight speed, he wouldn’t need to know how to fight. General Ross is a trained soldier, trained to kill with his bare hands, which is why he killed the Abomination, and easily defeated Savage Hulk on panel.

You pretend as if your flimsy story holds up under the scrutiny placed upon your inability to find any solid evidence supporting the notion that if you took away Nefaria’s powers that he’d be able to defeat Jimmy Olsen if they were the same age.

What relevance to the OP does you flimsy dishonest argument address?

Fighting Skills?

Count Nefaria is rated a 3, because of his powers. If you remove speed, flight, ocular assault, he obviously takes a combat effectiveness hit.

Idiot.

He isn't rated a 3 because of his powers.

Skills are separate from powers. A powerless Jarvis is a 3. A powerless Ross is a 4. A powerFUL Sentry is a 2.

Get it yet? Powers do not contribute to their skill rating.

Stoic, why are you demanding it to be shown when the Handbooks you argue say it?

You can’t find it in either the handbooks, or in his bio. Because it doesn’t exist.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is what a 3 means.

Nothing to do with his physical stats. He's hardly a neophyte, unless you don't know what neophyte means, I guess.

Nefaria is a 3. According to handbooks, that means he's better trained than a normal person.

Literally states he's had some training.

If placed against an opponent who had his powers all of their lives, and had Hercules level fighting skill, Count Nefaria would be beaten in by way of no contest. Because he has no prior knowledge of combat. It is written in the earlier books that he has been in. When he fought the Avengers, he relied mostly upon his powers to appear as impressive as he was.

Originally posted by Stoic
If placed against an opponent who had his powers all of their lives, and had Hercules level fighting skill, Count Nefaria would be beaten in by way of no contest. Because he has no prior knowledge of combat. It is written in the earlier books that he has been in. When he fought the Avengers, he relied mostly upon his powers to appear as impressive as he was.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Literally states he's had some training.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is what a 3 means.

Nothing to do with his physical stats. He's hardly a neophyte, unless you don't know what neophyte means, I guess.

Nefaria is a 3. According to handbooks, that means he's better trained than a normal person.

Originally posted by Stoic
You can’t find it in either the handbooks, or in his bio. Because it doesn’t exist.

https://bit.ly/3NKl0bC

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/bibliography/PowerLevels.html

FIGHTING ABILITY - Proficiency in hand-to-hand combat
1 = Poor
2 = Normal
3 = Some training
4 = Experienced fighter
5 = Master of a single form of combat
6 = Master of several forms of combat
7 = Master of all forms of combat

And the link above for the power grid is the site the Handbooks tell to go for FAQs and other stuff so this is official.

So why are you lying Stoic?

Show me where it even hints on him having any type of formal combat training. One citing. It doesn’t exist. Using handbooks to determine a characters abilities is perfectly fine, and is not an out of bounds approach to gaining a clearer picture. I did not lean solely on handbooks, I referenced Thor Blood Oath, and Herc’s performance against a blitzing Sentry, who has no formal training outside of what Tony, or Captain America may have briefly taught him.

Sentry in that case still had speed going for him. According to Amadeus Cho, while Hercules carried him, it was stated that Hercules was able to travel 100 plus meters in 2.3 seconds, which shows that at the very least, he can travel at 97 miles per hour while running.

Count Nefaria, and Sentry are far faster than that, and yet Hercules was able to side step, and turn Sentry’s momentum against him. That fighting skill being showcased.

In this case, Nefaria loses all of that huge speed advantage, and is fighting against an opponent of equal speed, but far greater skill. Skill enough to actually be Count Nefaria’s Combat instructor, in the form of wrestling, and boxing.

Hercules as stated, is a former Olympic level wrestling, and boxing champion. Those are actual feats credited to the character, versus Count Nefaria, a guy that he can hurt, and has no record of even taking one single martial arts, boxing, or wrestling lesson.

Count Nefaria loses the speed, loses the flight, loses the laser vision.

We are all supposed to believe that the loss of those powers will not diminish his chances of winning against a seasoned professional fighter. Anyone that believes that bullshit, is truly an idiot.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Literally states he's had some training.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is what a 3 means.

Nothing to do with his physical stats. He's hardly a neophyte, unless you don't know what neophyte means, I guess.

Nefaria is a 3. According to handbooks, that means he's better trained than a normal person.

You're the one saying the Handbooks are acceptable, now you're arguing against them.

So you went from refusing requests of evidence from the comics and citing the Handbooks to ignoring them once that backfired on you and demanding evidence other than the Handbooks.

So you're a hypocrite losing badly.