Originally posted by Stoic
His combat skills are neophyte level at best, while Herc is a pro. This is why I imagine this to be a no contest where Herc should logically school him if they are limited to what is being asked of by the OP. For example, if Mike Tyson fought the strongest man on Earth, he should win because the strongest man of Earth isn't a fighter of renown.
Unless you're arguing he's declined or you can show Herc being KK lite--
😆
Originally posted by Delta1938
So you don't think hundreds of miles an hour is significant compared to most non flight speed in Marvel?
Flight speed isn't instant speed (battle speed).
For example, it takes a high performance car several seconds to reach hundreds of mph. In a battle, at close distance, this car will be too slow for battle.
It's about acceleration (not top speed).
Can Nefaria reach bullet speeds within a fraction of a second (or almost instantly)?
If so then that's significant in the comic world and Hercules would have a problem with his speed.
I'm not saying that he doesn't possess that level of battle speed, only that I've never seen it. Moving faster than a human can see might be close to bullet speed (I have to research the fastest speed humans can see before object becomes unseeable).
Originally posted by h1a8
Flight speed isn't instant speed (battle speed).
For example, it takes a high performance car several seconds to reach hundreds of mph. In a battle, at close distance, this car will be too slow for battle.It's about acceleration (not top speed).
Can Nefaria reach bullet speeds within a fraction of a second (or almost instantly)?
If so then that's significant in the comic world and Hercules would have a problem with his speed.
I'm not saying that he doesn't possess that level of battle speed, only that I've never seen it. Moving faster than a human can see might be close to bullet speed (I have to research the fastest speed humans can see before object becomes unseeable).
Uh.....lot of that isn't what I argued. But his acceleration speed was plenty to be too fast for Whizzer to react(and speed is his only power), and he attacked 3 Avengers in a blitz before any could react, with Captain America last. Unless you're arguing Hercules is faster than Whizzer and much faster than Cap(since he was last) I'm not sure why you would even fathom an argument that Nefaria isn't much faster.
And the limits of what we can see isn't just the speed of an object but the size too. I can see a super sonic jet flying but I can't see .45 ACP going through the air despite its subsonic in speed.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Did Nefaria get some kind of downgrade in power? Because he was way above Thor to the point skill is irrelevant unless you're Karate Kid level. Nefaria had to adjust at times, maybe his mindset effected his powers, could just be lack of confidence. As he would go from doing poorly to dominating when after he realized he was above them.Against Wonder Man he went from losing to winning in the same page(attacked once the page before).
Note he said he wasn't prepared due to inexperience.You think that means Hercules will take him before he can get used to it? Unless he had the downgrade I asked, I doubt it. His Thor fight went from this--
--to this--
Note how much Nefaria is talking about Mjolnir. Even if Hercules were slightly stronger(which your only argument is outdated), he doesn't have Mjolnir to compensate to any degree for the difference between him and Nefaria. Unless you're arguing he's KK level skill?
Even after being told the process is rapidly aging him and he'll die in two days--
--he treats Thor like this--
Not sure if the aging had an effect on him outside his confidence (as we see his performance was effected by it as he does better as the fights go on) but him dying in 2 days was a lie, as he would actually be effectively immortal.
But it took a combined effort from the Avengers to beat him in that state of mind, far more than Hercules can offer in raw power. So do you have evidence Nefaria got downgraded in power, or are you arguing his skill is KK level?
Always found the building thing is funny as Thor has caught the Midgard Serpent on a fishing line. 😂
Here's my thing about Nef's rep, as good as he did against the team, his defeat was by a full durability Vision falling on him. I can't see that beating Hulk, or Thor, or Herc. Think about all the times a flier like Gladiator or someone slams them into the ground at full speeds.
Originally posted by Delta1938Whizzer wasn't that fast in that comic. Plus tagging a speedster doesn't always mean you are just as fast as them. You can blitz 3 people at 100 Mph. That's nowhere near bullet speed.
Uh.....lot of that isn't what I argued. But his acceleration speed was plenty to be too fast for Whizzer to react(and speed is his only power), and he attacked 3 Avengers in a blitz before any could react, with Captain America last. Unless you're arguing Hercules is faster than Whizzer and much faster than Cap(since he was last) I'm not sure why you would even fathom an argument that Nefaria isn't much faster.And the limits of what we can see isn't just the speed of an object but the size too. I can see a super sonic jet flying but I can't see .45 ACP going through the air despite its subsonic in speed.
I never claim that Nefaria had no superhuman speed. I even stated multiple times that he was faster than Herc.
Hence my argument is about significant more speed than Herc.
Both Cap and Wolverine are faster than Herc and have moved faster than humans can see/react. Doesn't mean they are too fast for Herc to tag. That's because they are not significantly faster (just faster).
But I'm considering that Nefaria is significantly faster (did you even read my last post?). So there should have been no more reply from you.
Originally posted by h1a8
Whizzer wasn't that fast in that comic. Plus tagging a speedster doesn't always mean you are just as fast as them. You can blitz 3 people at 100 Mph. That's nowhere near bullet speed.I never claim that Nefaria had no superhuman speed. I even stated multiple times that he was faster than Herc.
Hence my argument is about significant more speed than Herc.
Both Cap and Wolverine are faster than Herc and have moved faster than humans can see/react. Doesn't mean they are too fast for Herc to tag. That's because they are not significantly faster (just faster).But I'm considering that Nefaria is significantly faster (did you even read my last post?). So there should have been no more reply from you.
He was faster than human, and Nefaria hit him with Whizzer looking right at him while Nefaria commented on his own speed.....which was my point. From what I read, if accurate, just based on his origin he should be near speed of sound. So not "nowhere near bullet speed" unless you're talking .50 BMG, no, he's a lot slower than that.
Here's what started it all.
Originally posted by h1a8 I was already assuming they were the same speed when I posted it.
I wasn't sure if he thought Herc was faster or not (they way he's arguing).
I didn't know Nefaria was faster than Herc in comics.Well my point still stands as my intention was both to be equal speed and not that Herc is faster.
Then when I told you his origin included taking the power of a speedster multiplied, you said--
Originally posted by h1a8
I stand corrected. I don't remember Nefaria using any significant type of superspeed when he fought the avengers those few times.
I mean I guess you're gonna hinge on "I said significant" but everything else supports you just had no clue. But you keep saying "significant" without actually defining it. Definitely not by DC standards, but that's like comparing carter to a pulled watermelon when comparing IQ. The watermelon is DC and it's just mean to carter to make that comparison.
And yes I read your post, it feels like you're doing the same thing on Stoic saying Hercules is a little stronger than Thor.
Originally posted by cdtm
Always found the building thing is funny as Thor has caught the Midgard Serpent on a fishing line. 😂Here's my thing about Nef's rep, as good as he did against the team, his defeat was by a full durability Vision falling on him. I can't see that beating Hulk, or Thor, or Herc. Think about all the times a flier like Gladiator or someone slams them into the ground at full speeds.
Well, Midgard Serpent was debunked in the way it's argued, but would still be like building size so you point would still stand. But wasn't that after this instance? Probably though Thor has feats before and around the same time that still make this look bad by comparison.
And you say you can't see him beating those guys, but.....he had Thor down twice but didn't continue the attack. Once from Vision jumping in, giving Thor time to recover, the other him running off after backhanded Thor because he thought he(Nefaria) was dying and wanted to go out in a bang destroying as much life and property as possible. The rapid aging may or may not have effected his powers, it definitely effected his confidence which seemed to effect his powers in the scans I posted. Vision dropped on him at maximum weight and density after the rapid aging set in and he took attacks. Might not have worked without all that. But you say you can't see him beating Thor when he treated Thor pretty badly. 😕
No wonder you changed your mind about our BZ. 😠
Originally posted by cdtm
I had Covid.And I meant I can't see Vision beat Thor or Hulk or Herc by falling on them at max density. Not when Hype or Gladiator regularly slam them and barely give them pause.
You didn't say that until well after you agreed to it but then didn't answer. 😠 And if it was anything like me, the worst that would effect you from participating is sleeping 12 plus hours only to fall asleep again watching TV.
So are you saying you still want to or what? I never got an answer when I wanted clarification. sneer
What if writers intend something different with the Hyperion and Gladiator examples? And that's ignoring the clear and potential context.
Originally posted by Delta1938
He was faster than human, and Nefaria hit him with Whizzer looking right at him while Nefaria commented on his own speed.....which was my point. From what I read, if accurate, just based on his origin he should be near speed of sound. So not "nowhere near bullet speed" unless you're talking .50 BMG, no, he's a lot slower than that.Here's what started it all.
Then when I told you his origin included taking the power of a speedster multiplied, you said--
I mean I guess you're gonna hinge on "I said significant" but everything else supports you just had no clue. But you keep saying "significant" without actually defining it. Definitely not by DC standards, but that's like comparing carter to a pulled watermelon when comparing IQ. The watermelon is DC and it's just mean to carter to make that comparison.
And yes I read your post, it feels like you're doing the same thing on Stoic saying Hercules is a little stronger than Thor.
My comments were referring to things AFTER scans were posted. Not before..
I did change argument to significantly. So y still argue that he has speed? Isn't that discussion over?
If I'm not currently arguing that Nefaria and Herc are the same speed then y still bring that up?
Whizzer was about 100mph in that particular comic (got a downgrade) from what I heard.
Originally posted by h1a8
My comments were referring to things AFTER scans were posted. Not before..I did change argument to significantly. So y still argue that he has speed? Isn't that discussion over?
If I'm not currently arguing that Nefaria and Herc are the same speed then y still bring that up?
Whizzer was about 100mph in that particular comic (got a downgrade) from what I heard.
This needs to be covered before any further discussion. By comments you made AFTER scans were posted, and you referring to the comments I quoted?
Originally posted by StoicThat’s while possessing all of that speed. If he was slowed down to Thor’s level of speed, he would have inevitably have been crushed. Nefaria was never a hardened warrior. Ignore that fact and we really have nothing else to discuss.
I already covered this.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Did Nefaria get some kind of downgrade in power? Because he was way above Thor to the point skill is irrelevant unless you're Karate Kid level. Nefaria had to adjust at times, maybe his mindset effected his powers, could just be lack of confidence. As he would go from doing poorly to dominating when after he realized he was above them.Against Wonder Man he went from losing to winning in the same page(attacked once the page before).
Note he said he wasn't prepared due to inexperience.You think that means Hercules will take him before he can get used to it? Unless he had the downgrade I asked, I doubt it. His Thor fight went from this--
--to this--
Note how much Nefaria is talking about Mjolnir. Even if Hercules were slightly stronger(which your only argument is outdated), he doesn't have Mjolnir to compensate to any degree for the difference between him and Nefaria. Unless you're arguing he's KK level skill?
Even after being told the process is rapidly aging him and he'll die in two days--
--he treats Thor like this--
Not sure if the aging had an effect on him outside his confidence (as we see his performance was effected by it as he does better as the fights go on) but him dying in 2 days was a lie, as he would actually be effectively immortal.
But it took a combined effort from the Avengers to beat him in that state of mind, far more than Hercules can offer in raw power. So do you have evidence Nefaria got downgraded in power, or are you arguing his skill is KK level?
Nefaria not being a "hardened warrior" is an irrelevant argument. And you're making the circular argument he was using his speed. Nefaria was so much stronger that your arguments don't hold water.