Originally posted by StoicThis is great justification for your headcanon but there's just not enough substance beneath the spin.
He had a speed advantage and strength advantage, which gave him leverage to do that to the She Hulk. In this case Nefaria is limited to Hercules speed, and has no long range advantages.Since he has zero combat history prior to gaining his newfound abilities no one can claim that he actually knows how to fight, because he didn’t.
We know this by delving deeper into his past and taking note of his words which were the very reasons why he obtained his powers.
Nefaria leans on his powers to dominate those that he has powerful advantages over such as speed, durability, and long range advantages.
He is not immune to Thor level strength, and the only reason that he escaped being brutalized by Thor was his durability and speed. His durability allowed him to snap out of having his bell continuously rung by Thor, in which we see him palm the hammer strike using speed.
If it didn’t hurt, do you think that he would have stopped Thor from continuously hitting him? And he was much faster than Thor as well, but still managed to nearly wind up in trouble. He has no speed advantage here.
We even see in the scan that I presented that Thor’s level of strength is able to harm him. Will you deny this? How would he escape the submissions like arm-bars, suplexes, gut wrenches, body slams, knees to balls, etc?
Did you want to ignore that?
Then you have Hercules, an Avenger, or a super police officer that has created his own style of combat, trained further while working with Captain America and the Avengers, was a Champion, has been in countless wars, and was able to easily turn the tables on Sentry, another character that really has basic combat knowledge, but is never tested until he runs into a character on his level with greater combat experience and is able to match his speed.
Nefaria in this case is just a muscle boy. He dressed like Liberace before ever putting on a cape and tights. The jig is up for this guy.
Hercules vs Count Liberace with super strength is what this truly boils down to. Prove me wrong.
You believe it that Nefaria wins, is the same as saying that a street fighter would defeat a seasoned wrestler with great boxing skills. Why don’t you look up how dominant wrestling is as a martial art.
Could a writer write a Herc/Nefaria battle, under these conditions, in the way you insist it would play out? Yes. Anything is possible.
Would it depart from current portrayals? Also yes.
Originally posted by Stoic
No she wasn't. She Hulk was weaker than Wonder Man in those days. How is this even questionable? How about anyone who does not actually know how to fight, challenge a pro fighter and see how things work out?
The problem with this analogy is it's wrong. A better analogy would be a pro fighter challenging a bear and seeing how that goes. I mean you're giving off the vibe of a ****ing weeb who thinks skill trounced any strength advantage.
If a pro fighter of average human strength hit a bear, the bear would not feel the punch. In this case, Hercules can actually hurt Nefaria, so it isn't that at all. Nefaria is stronger but not to the point that Hercs attacks would be ignored. Thor hurt him with a punch, so Hercules would as well. Nefaria was dressing like Liberace, had no former combat experience, which means he would be the opposite of what it would be like to fight a bear. He's basically presented as a strong man vs a pro fighter who is slightly weaker.
Originally posted by Stoic
If a pro fighter of average human strength hit a bear, the bear would not feel the punch. In this case, Hercules can actually hurt Nefaria, so it isn't that at all. Nefaria is stronger but not to the point that Hercs attacks would be ignored. Thor hurt him with a punch, so Hercules would as well. Nefaria was dressing like Liberace, had no former combat experience, which means he would be the opposite of what it would be like to fight a bear. He's basically presented as a strong man vs a pro fighter who is slightly weaker.
False. You can hurt a bear. People have successfully fought them off. Your odds are bad, but it happens. A video went viral recently of that(I guess he was wearing a go pro).
And I posted Nefaria going from feeling hits to no selling. It didn't go the way you keep saying it did. He downed Thor with a backhand for ****s sake, that's a pretty significant advantage that you've done nothing to show skill being enough. Thor even if not as skilled as Hercules meets the criteria you keep arguing and had Mjolnir, which was the real thing that Nefaria was impressed over, and was still inferior.
And stop with the "he doesn't have speed here" argument unless you actually SHOW Nefaria used that to his advantage against Thor. Otherwise it's a circular argument.
Originally posted by Smurph
This is great justification for your headcanon but there's just not enough substance beneath the spin.Could a writer write a Herc/Nefaria battle, under these conditions, in the way you insist it would play out? Yes. Anything is possible.
Would it depart from current portrayals? Also yes.
What current portrayals. Would they include when Cage and Logan tore him up?
Conversation appears to reflect really divergent opinions.
Hercules' chances would be similar to H2H-Thor's or Savage Hulk's chances against Count Nefaria. I certainly don't see Count Nefaria's flight (or arguably greater strength) overwhelming Hercules' fighting skill/experience. It wouldn't overwhelm H2H-Thor w/o Mjolnir or Savage Hulk either.
Following from that, fight might play out similar to how Hercules has fought Hulk and Thor. And he's hardly outmatched unless there's circumstances involved.
I'm going with Hercules here.
Originally posted by Smurph
but apparently easy to insert yourself into it
You don't know how to fight do you? Technique, and knowledge outweighs strength every time provided the two combatants have comparable stats.in this case, Hercules isn't too weak to harm Nefaria, while Nefaria lacks the knowledge to escape submissions, and other techniques that Hercules bring to the table. It's obvious that you like delta have never had a fight in your life.
Originally posted by ODG"hardly outmatched" isn't the same as "likely to win" though. There's a disconnect between your third para and your conclusion.
Conversation appears to reflect really divergent opinions.Hercules' chances would be similar to H2H-Thor's or Savage Hulk's chances against Count Nefaria. I certainly don't see Count Nefaria's flight (or arguably greater strength) overwhelming Hercules' fighting skill/experience. It wouldn't overwhelm H2H-Thor w/o Mjolnir or Savage Hulk either.
Following from that, fight might play out similar to how Hercules has fought Hulk and Thor. And he's hardly outmatched unless there's circumstances involved.
I'm going with Hercules here.
And, actually, your second para suddenly shifts from comparing Nefaria to Thor/Hulk, to comparing Hercules to Thor/Hulk. If fighting Nefaria would be like fighting Hulk, then it's a given that Nefaria wouldn't overwhelm Hulk, but irrelevant to the argument as structured.
EDIT: never mind, I just can't read, your analogy holds. I guess I just disagree.
EDIT EDIT: oh, the disconnect is between the paras. If Herc fighting Nefaria is like Thor fighting Nefaria, then Herc fighting Thor is not an analogy for how this fight plays out. Herc and Thor sit on the same side of the analogy. /shrug
Originally posted by Stoic
You already posted bullshit. Nefaria has no combat experience in comparison to a seasoned warrior like Hercules. At full power he would win, but with these nerfs he gets schooled. Of course you'd love to ignore this very important fact, but that's on you. Combat ability is very much a reason to make a case against Liberace with super powers. We saw what Hercules did to Sentry. He ended that with one shot.You still have yet to acknowledge Thor hurting Nefaria with his bare fists, which shoots down the idea that he's too strong for Hercules to hurt. Then again, arguing combat with a non fighter like you is pointless, because you'll attempt to ignore experience.
Can't Black Adam end a fight with Sentry with one shot?
Originally posted by Stoic
You don't know how to fight do you? Technique, and knowledge outweighs strength every time provided the two combatants have comparable stats.in this case, Hercules isn't too weak to harm Nefaria, while Nefaria lacks the knowledge to escape submissions, and other techniques that Hercules bring to the table. It's obvious that you like delta have never had a fight in your life.
I know a thing or two. Always preferred striking from the inside, at grappling range.
An expert grappler like Herc would easily stifle any strength advantage on Nef. This was actually demonstrated in Incredible Hercules, against Savage Hulk.