Count Nefaria Vs Hercules, speed equalised, no heat vision

Originally posted by Smurph
"hardly outmatched" isn't the same as "likely to win" though. There's a disconnect between your third para and your conclusion.

And, actually, your second para suddenly shifts from comparing Nefaria to Thor/Hulk, to comparing Hercules to Thor/Hulk. If fighting Nefaria would be like fighting Hulk, then it's a given that Nefaria wouldn't overwhelm Hulk, but irrelevant to the argument as structured.

EDIT: never mind, I just can't read, your analogy holds. I guess I just disagree.

EDIT EDIT: oh, the disconnect is between the paras. If Herc fighting Nefaria is like Thor fighting Nefaria, then Herc fighting Thor is not an analogy for how this fight plays out. Herc and Thor sit on the same side of the analogy. /shrug

I guess I consider Count Nefaria, Thor, Hercules and Savage Hulk as being peers with Hercules having the clear upperhand with skill that can close the gap w/ other esoteric powers or strength differences. So everyone can sit on either side of the analogy.

But that's basically assuming my conclusion. And I hate when people do that. Once again, I blame Obama.

Originally posted by Stoic
What evidence? You aren't calculating for the speed bump.

Originally posted by Stoic
Nefaria becomes a completely different character under the stips. Not sure why it's so difficult to understand that he's just a muscle boy vs an established warrior.

So show Nefaria using speed against Thor. You say I ignore the early punch, but in addition to you ignoring how the fight went on, you ignore I tell you to show Nefaria using speed against Thor instead of assuming he did. And I mean the original fight.

^ Irony.

Originally posted by ODG
I looked at my post again. It's poorly structured. I blame Obama.

I guess I consider Count Nefaria, Thor, Hercules and Savage Hulk as being peers with Hercules having the clear upperhand with skill that can close the gap w/ other esoteric powers or strength differences. So everyone can sit on either side of the analogy.

But that's basically assuming my conclusion. And I hate when people do that. Once again, I blame Obama.

But I guess my issue is, even assuming the truth of that argument, it still doesn't lead to Hercules winning.

^ I mean... I haven't spent too much time thinking about it, but my initial opinion is Hercules takes 6/10 here? Count Nefaria is the only one nerfed.

And I definitely think both H2H-Thor and Savage Hulk would take at least 6/10 in this particular situation.

Not trying to crap on Count Nefaria but he is a supervillain. Supervillains always blow their load at the start of a fight while superheroes get to enjoy a Round 2 enchantment. It's comics.

Eh, I think that just brings us back to the flaw in the comparison, because (without necessarily agreeing on they'd fare one-on-one with Nef), I would give Hulk and hammerless Thor odds against Hercules.

Herc can hang but (much like Diana...) his much vaunted skill edge is always less show, more tell. Again, I just see the "combo to KO" Herc as a forum concept.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So show Nefaria using speed against Thor. You say I ignore the early punch, but in addition to you ignoring how the fight went on, you ignore I tell you to show Nefaria using speed against Thor instead of assuming he did. And I mean the original fight.

He caught the hammer before being bludgeoned repeatedly. That’s just one example. Proof? Are you on drugs? We both know that Nefaria is faster than Thor. Is this something that you’ve suddenly become unaware of? Stop the lies.

In real life, if you put a strong man in a boxing ring with nearly zero boxing experience, the seasoned boxer is going to lay him out. If you did not know this, why not test the theory out for yourself?

And again, Nefaria isn’t like comparing a bear to a human in proportion to Nefaria vs Hercules. The difference is far less than that. If Nefaria is 100 in strength, Hercules would be 85-90.

On a combat scale, if Hercules was rated as a 100, Nefaria wooild be a 20 in terms of combat knowledge, and i’m being very generous. Perhaps you should read more of Nefaria’s appearances, because he wasn’t a fighter before gaining his powers. However on this forum, he suddenly has gained Superman’s combat knowledge.

Originally posted by ODG
^ I mean... I haven't spent too much time thinking about it, but my initial opinion is Hercules takes 6/10 here? Count Nefaria is the only one nerfed.

And I definitely think both H2H-Thor and Savage Hulk would take at least 6/10 in this particular situation.

Not trying to crap on Count Nefaria but he is a supervillain. Supervillains always blow their load at the start of a fight while superheroes get to enjoy a Round 2 enchantment. It's comics.

Yeah I think the argument is just that Stoic hasn't posted Herc skill feats. Like, on statements, a depowered Herc should be Cap level? Bats level, that kinda thing, I..e top tier MA. But the skills section of his respect thread is lacking, so people are unconvinced.

Speaking of boxing.........Muhammad Ali fought and defeated much stronger and harder hitting opponents than himself like Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers for example.

Originally posted by Stoic
He caught the hammer before being bludgeoned repeatedly. That’s just one example. Proof? Are you on drugs? We both know that Nefaria is faster than Thor. Is this something that you’ve suddenly become unaware of? Stop the lies.

In real life, if you put a strong man in a boxing ring with nearly zero boxing experience, the seasoned boxer is going to lay him out. If you did not know this, why not test the theory out for yourself?

And again, Nefaria isn’t like comparing a bear to a human in proportion to Nefaria vs Hercules. The difference is far less than that. If Nefaria is 100 in strength, Hercules would be 85-90.

On a combat scale, if Hercules was rated as a 100, Nefaria wooild be a 20 in terms of combat knowledge, and i’m being very generous. Perhaps you should read more of Nefaria’s appearances, because he wasn’t a fighter before gaining his powers. However on this forum, he suddenly has gained Superman’s combat knowledge.

Blah blah blah blah you continue with your circular arguments. You assume Nefaria was always using his speed because he had it. That's not how it works. There were plenty of times they showed it. If he actually used it against Thor I missed it. But I guess this is what you want to be the case given some of the characters you've backed where this circular argument is the only way you can argue them having any speed. Which is funny because those arguments would actually usually be you arguing Thor was as or nearly as fast as Nefaria.

I don't care about your retarded repeated arguments about facing a boxer. I showed the advantage Nefaria showed and covered your argument. You just keep not showing anything, except that one scan you wank that I already covered.

And I certainly didn't argue his skill. I haven't seen anyone else argue Nefaria being skilled. Post who is arguing he "suddenly has gained Superman’s combat knowledge." But then again you assumed me saying someone can't spell is me arguing for Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by lawest9
Speaking of boxing.........Muhammad Ali fought and defeated much stronger and harder hitting opponents than himself like Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers for example.

Yeah but an untrained chimp would tear him apart.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah but an untrained chimp would tear him apart.

@ Darksaint:

Upon further study of your post I have a better understanding of your point now, when you said "untrained chimp" I was thinking you may have been referring to a journeyman fight who is generally used to beef up an up and coming contenders resume, but you meant the actual primate itself, gotcha now.

Originally posted by Smurph
Eh, I think that just brings us back to the flaw in the comparison, because (without necessarily agreeing on they'd fare one-on-one with Nef), I would give Hulk and hammerless Thor odds against Hercules.

Herc can hang but (much like Diana...) his much vaunted skill edge is always less show, more tell. Again, I just see the "combo to KO" Herc as a forum concept.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah I think the argument is just that Stoic hasn't posted Herc skill feats. Like, on statements, a depowered Herc should be Cap level? Bats level, that kinda thing, I..e top tier MA. But the skills section of his respect thread is lacking, so people are unconvinced.

You are assuming my argument.

My point was that.....there were no scans of Herc's skill feats. Not Cap level, Punisher level, even Hawkeye level!!!!

You hardly post these days - a few days ago (weeks?) there was a thread asking for Herc's skill feats (not lip service). People are coming in here with that thread fresh in our minds....context, as always, matters.

Originally posted by ODG
I suppose it's unclear to me how much more fighting skill Hercules needs to display to close this perceived gap in strength? Surely no Mantis tier? Surely not Captain America level?? Punisher level??? Hawkeye level????

Originally posted by Smurph
Well, each of those characters has way, way more showings of skill overcoming a physical gap than Hercules has, so... again, not a helpful comparison for Hercules

Herc is pretty close to Thor, but Hulk has a strength advantage over Herc. So how far does Herc's skill take him against Hulk?

It's just all so ABC because we see the same showings both proving Herc's strength class but also proving that his skill overcomes a strength gap. And like, the same showing can't be both.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Herc is pretty close to Thor, but Hulk has a strength advantage over Herc. So how far does Herc's skill take him against Hulk?

Originally posted by cdtm
This was actually demonstrated in Incredible Hercules, against Savage Hulk.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Herc is pretty close to Thor, but Hulk has a strength advantage over Herc. So how far does Herc's skill take him against Hulk?

The way Stoic describes the fight, I think he sees it going like this, but more successful: https://imgur.io/a/H1WqnMU