Who in marvel is powerful enough to beat COIE Anti Monitor

Originally posted by Galan007
3.) I have always been under the impression that AM's 'peak' was after he absorbed the anti-matter universe, which gave him enough power to return to the dawn of time in an effort to reforge creation. Is that incorrect?

But COIE Anti-Monitor also revealed he expended those energies, right?

And that's specifically why he had to wait (and even was annoyed he had to wait) until the heroes arrived to absorb the heroes' energies in order to change history.

Originally posted by MrMind
and anti-matter universe was as big and powerful as the entire dc multiverse at that time

which makes COIE AM a multiversal powerhouse

- Crisis on Infinite Earths #4

So it depends on how you define "universal" in this context. Do you base it off the universes after- or before the split?

A lot of people are very quick to to jump to the conclusion that a multiverse is necessarily grander and more substantial than a universe, but I don't think that's how most writers think of it. To quote Michael Carey:

Ewing did something very similar with the First Firmament.

Other than that I think ODG makes a good case here.

Originally posted by Astner
Other than that I think ODG makes a good case here.

usaflag

Originally posted by MrMind
and anti-matter universe was as big and powerful as the entire dc multiverse at that time

Originally posted by Astner
The Positive Matter Universe became weaker when it split into a Multiverse, or more specifically: each individual universe became weaker. That's why the Anti-Matter Wave was able to go through the universes unperturbed.

- Crisis on Infinite Earths #4

So it depends on how you define "universal" in this context. Do you base it off the universes after- or before the split?

A lot of people are very quick to to jump to the conclusion that a multiverse is necessarily grander and more substantial than a universe, but I don't think that's how most writers think of it. To quote Michael Carey:

Ewing did something very similar with the First Firmament.

Other than that I think ODG makes a good case here.

right so the kind of universe that carey is referring to is actually an omniverse, if we ignore terminology differences, a universe consist of different dimensions/realms, levels could be view as a multiverse/omniverse.

Originally posted by MrMind
right so the kind of universe that carey is referring to is actually an omniverse, if we ignore terminology differences, a universe consist of different dimensions/realms, levels could be view as a multiverse/omniverse.

Which is kinda my point.

So, if I follow the logic...

if there's no necessary difference between a universe, and a multiverse, and an omniverse... then nothing necessarily makes a "multiversal force" greater than a universal force.

Moreover, who cares about the distinction between a thousand universes and an infinite number, if the total simply composes one multiverse... which is not necessarily different from a universe.

It's almost as if this thread is asking an impossible question.

Originally posted by MrMind
right so the kind of universe that carey is referring to is actually an omniverse, if we ignore terminology differences, a universe consist of different dimensions/realms, levels could be view as a multiverse/omniverse.

The amount of salt in this thread about anti Monitor could re-salinate the oceans if needed.

Originally posted by Astner
The Positive Matter Universe became weaker when it split into a Multiverse, or more specifically: each individual universe became weaker. That's why the Anti-Matter Wave was able to go through the universes unperturbed.

- Crisis on Infinite Earths #4

So it depends on how you define "universal" in this context. Do you base it off the universes after- or before the split?

A lot of people are very quick to to jump to the conclusion that a multiverse is necessarily grander and more substantial than a universe, but I don't think that's how most writers think of it. To quote Michael Carey:

Ewing did something very similar with the First Firmament.

Other than that I think ODG makes a good case here.

Originally posted by Astner
To me terms like universe, multiverse, and omniverse mean little without contextual definitions behind them. Chaos War collectively referred to the various domains of men and gods as the multiverse, not accounting for various timelines and whatnot, which made it a different thing from the multiverse in Time Runs Out.

so what we need is some kind of quantification, in the end it's all about the size （pun intended)

let's say if there's a realm is it infinite in size? if not how big is it, is it as big as a regular universe?

when there's a multiverse, is it a multiverse consisting of infinite universes?

and in the end as long as a multiverse has infinite universes, it is infinite by nature, we know 616 universe is by itself a small multiverse which other domains and dimensions, but there is a bigger multiverse encompassing that universe too.

marvel just like dc has mentioned they have infinite universes, which coulld be intepret as a multiverse/omniverse in comics, and really anything beyond that is just semantics when we comparing all third dimensional space/time

aside from that we can get into another topic where planes of existence above the traditional third dimensional universes, and that was only really discussed thoroughly in dc where every dimension is infinitely larger than the previous one.

higher plane of existence view the lower plane of existence as dust, a multiverse consist of infinite universe could be a germ compare to higher realm

Originally posted by MrMind
so what we need is some kind of quantification, in the end it's all about the size （pun intended)

let's say if there's a realm is it infinite in size? if not how big is it, is it as big as a regular universe?

when there's a multiverse, is it a multiverse consisting of infinite universes?

and in the end as long as a multiverse has infinite universes, it is infinite by nature, we know 616 universe is by itself a small multiverse which other domains and dimensions, but there is a bigger multiverse encompassing that universe too.

marvel just like dc has mentioned they have infinite universes, which coulld be intepret as a multiverse/omniverse in comics, and really anything beyond that is just semantics when we comparing all third dimensional space/time

aside from that we can get into another topic where planes of existence above the traditional third dimensional universes, and that was only really discussed thoroughly in dc where every dimension is infinitely larger than the previous one.

higher plane of existence view the lower plane of existence as dust, a multiverse consist of infinite universe could be a germ compare to higher realm

Dumbo has been butthurt over Anti Monitor and Spectre for decades at this point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What does Mike Carey's statement has to do with COIE?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What does a weakened universe even mean here? Less planets and galaxies to destroy?

Originally posted by Smurph
So, if I follow the logic...

if there's no necessary difference between a universe, and a multiverse, and an omniverse... then nothing necessarily makes a "multiversal force" greater than a universal force.

Moreover, who cares about the distinction between a thousand universes and an infinite number, if the total simply composes one multiverse... which is not necessarily different from a universe.

It's almost as if this thread is asking an impossible question.

Get with the program dude.

Originally posted by Astner
It was an example of writers not thinking of it the same way many of us want to do.

It has nothing to do with COIE. Random strawman logic is random.

I couldn't tell you. All we know is that the individual universes of the multiverse were weaker than the original positive-matter universe, because that's all the Monitor tells us.

An individual universe in marvel is stronger than entire multiverse. What's your point?

Should I use it to lowball every multiverse feat for marvel?

if we are comparing size of marvel and dc

marvel simply doesn't compare to dc even if marvel has infinite numbers of universes

dc has multiple higher planes of existences that surpass that, beyond the known multiverse. marvel has infinite dimensions but the dimensions are usually just viewed as universes, not levels beyond in size and power

ewing sorta explore on the meta aspect of it in ultimate, and try to explore beyond the multiverse but we see little expansion beyond the eighth cosmo/multiverse/omniverse

Originally posted by abhilegend
It has nothing to do with COIE. Random strawman logic is random.

Originally posted by abhilegend
An individual universe in marvel is stronger than entire multiverse. What's your point?

Yeah they use different numbers for the universes.
They say a 1000 a few times, ‘more than a thousand’. Pariah said both hundred and thousand and thousand more at different points. Dr Light says hundreds also.

But the narration says in the beginning there were many, a multiversal infinitude.

Monitor must have been pretty powerful, even at the lowest end of his power and barely alive, he moved two universes and their entire timelines into a netherverse he created from his power at his moment of death. This while he repeatedly stated as greatly weakened and appeared feeble and exhausted.

Then, Lyla a character he gifted power to, did the same with 3 more(moving whole universes and their entire timelines, not creating the netherverse).

Originally posted by Astner
I never said it did, it's a tangential point.

For what point?

That's not what I'm saying. You could make the argument that the Marvel universes are weaker than their original universe too, since they were split from the First Firmament, who was a single universe but at least as powerful as Multi-Eternity.

Good, no marvel character below multi eternity is universal+ level then.

Originally posted by Astner

I couldn't tell you. All we know is that the individual universes of the multiverse were weaker than the original positive-matter universe, because that's all the Monitor tells us.

For example, could it only attribute to let the antimatter waves have the abilities to travel through different unvierses, but you still need to use the amount of powers that would have wiped out RL universe to destroy one? After all, Earth-Prime is DC's real world universe/our earth's analogue, right?

Originally posted by MrMind
so what we need is some kind of quantification, in the end it's all about the size （pun intended)

let's say if there's a realm is it infinite in size? if not how big is it, is it as big as a regular universe?

Now zillion isn't an actual number. But the number of worlds strikes me as rather... below what I'd expect from an antimatter universe that absorbed a supposed infinite # of universes except for five. Maybe, it's just me.

Originally posted by Smurph
So, if I follow the logic...

if there's no necessary difference between a universe, and a multiverse, and an omniverse... then nothing necessarily makes a "multiversal force" greater than a universal force.

Moreover, who cares about the distinction between a thousand universes and an infinite number, if the total simply composes one multiverse... which is not necessarily different from a universe.

It's almost as if this thread is asking an impossible question.

Rather than focusing on the impossible question, the legitimate question you can always ask is are you being consistent or hypocritical when it comes to one and the other?

Originally posted by Astner
To me terms like universe, multiverse, and omniverse mean little without contextual definitions behind them. Chaos War collectively referred to the various domains of men and gods as the multiverse, not accounting for various timelines and whatnot, which made it a different thing from the multiverse in Time Runs Out.

But shine that same sort of light on Lucifer and watch out. arrrgh