Who in marvel is powerful enough to beat COIE Anti Monitor

Started by Smurph11 pages

Originally posted by ODG
Comics are inconsistent. There's room for differing interpretations. Then there are mistakes or complete retcons that muck it up even more. So a definitive answer to any comics-related issue/argument is likely impossible, yes. However, that state of affairs doesn't protect self-serving reasoning.
While all true, those problems (inconsistencies, retcons, multiple interpretations) aren't the problems I was getting at. As Astner points out, the standard assumption on the forum is that an omniversal power > a multiversal power > a universal power. If that hierarchy isn't necessarily true, then I can't see how you can answer the title of this thread, even if we were all agreed on how to interpret COIE.

And I'm not raising the point in order to protect some self serving reasoning. I have no dog in the fight.

Also, what feats does COIE AM have against bubbles in the brain?

Checkmate, DC.

Originally posted by ODG
If it's that important for you, then the size of the enlarged antimatter universe was quantified:

Now zillion isn't an actual number. But the number of worlds strikes me as rather... below what I'd expect from an antimatter universe that absorbed a supposed infinite # of universes except for five. Maybe, it's just me.

Well, the worlds were wiped out, the Anti-matter realm expanded.

And I bet that number of worlds seemed huge to a writer in 1985. lol

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, what feats does COIE AM have against bubbles in the brain?

Checkmate, DC.

True

are people seriously arguing that the multiverse didn't have infinite universes during..... crisis on INFINITE earths? lmfao.

https://postimg.cc/3kbqJySB
"we were split into an infinite number of universes" - coie #5

https://postimg.cc/pyPctbRk
"experiments carried out by krona resulted in the creation of an infinite number of universes." - dc encyclopedia

https://postimg.cc/RWqVsDWZ
"countless universes were erased from existence in a spreading tide of antimatter" - jla in crisis #1

https://postimg.cc/DJGHN2cc
"the crisis to come would usher in a wave of infinite deaths on infinite worlds" - 52 #3

https://postimg.cc/Zvh2t17z
"a multiverse where universes and planets such as earth were replicated and mirrored across a vibrating infinite plane." - 52 #4

https://postimg.cc/Cdj9Hx5h
"at the time, there was an infinite number of universes." - 52 #5

https://postimg.cc/dLwpWcZ8
"we went from an infinite number of universes with almost as many earths, to one." - 52 #6

https://postimg.cc/p5xG1Kr2
"krona peered back in time and triggered the creation of an infinite number of parallel universes" - jsa #20

......and there's quite a bit more out there.

yall can cling to a handful of cherry picked statements from a 40 year old comic series if you want. i'll stick with the much more recent information. cheers.

deadpool just straight up murdered this thread and odg

Originally posted by MrMind
deadpool just straight up murdered this thread and odg
like odg recently said-
Originally posted by ODG
At some point, maybe it'll be retconned but... for now, we deal with what we have.
"we deal with what we have."

well in this case what we "have" are a bunch of different sources (most were released decades after coie itself) stating that the coie multiverse contained infinite universes.

so unless someone can post more recent scans that cap the coie multiverse at some arbitrary / less then infinite amount, then we go by the most recent information we've been given. odg himself agrees with this logic, so there really shouldn't be an argument anymore. the information i posted > a few cherrypicked statements from a 40 year old series. cheers.

Crisis on a zillion earths sounds better though. COZE Anti-Monitor.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
are people seriously arguing that the multiverse didn't have infinite universes during..... crisis on INFINITE earths? lmfao.

https://postimg.cc/3kbqJySB
"we were split into an infinite number of universes" - coie #5

https://postimg.cc/pyPctbRk
"experiments carried out by krona resulted in the creation of an infinite number of universes." - dc encyclopedia

https://postimg.cc/RWqVsDWZ
"countless universes were erased from existence in a spreading tide of antimatter" - jla in crisis #1

https://postimg.cc/DJGHN2cc
"the crisis to come would usher in a wave of infinite deaths on infinite worlds" - 52 #3

https://postimg.cc/Zvh2t17z
"a multiverse where universes and planets such as earth were replicated and mirrored across a vibrating infinite plane." - 52 #4

https://postimg.cc/Cdj9Hx5h
"at the time, there was an infinite number of universes." - 52 #5

https://postimg.cc/dLwpWcZ8
"we went from an infinite number of universes with almost as many earths, to one." - 52 #6

https://postimg.cc/p5xG1Kr2
"krona peered back in time and triggered the creation of an infinite number of parallel universes" - jsa #20

......and there's quite a bit more out there.

yall can cling to a handful of cherry picked statements from a 40 year old comic series if you want. i'll stick with the much more recent information. cheers.


Also worth noting that in Legends of the DCU: Crisis on Infinite Earths(written by the same writer of COIE), in a flashback story of COIE, mentioned AM destroyed endless universes
https://ibb.co/K2jk8nP

Even during the DCNU, where there was apparently only 52 univereses, during the phantom stranger series, DC still had an Infinite amount of universes. Lmao

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
are people seriously arguing that the multiverse didn't have infinite universes during..... crisis on INFINITE earths? lmfao.

https://postimg.cc/3kbqJySB
"we were split into an infinite number of universes" - coie #5

https://postimg.cc/pyPctbRk
"experiments carried out by krona resulted in the creation of an infinite number of universes." - dc encyclopedia

https://postimg.cc/RWqVsDWZ
"countless universes were erased from existence in a spreading tide of antimatter" - jla in crisis #1

https://postimg.cc/DJGHN2cc
"the crisis to come would usher in a wave of infinite deaths on infinite worlds" - 52 #3

https://postimg.cc/Zvh2t17z
"a multiverse where universes and planets such as earth were replicated and mirrored across a vibrating infinite plane." - 52 #4

https://postimg.cc/Cdj9Hx5h
"at the time, there was an infinite number of universes." - 52 #5

https://postimg.cc/dLwpWcZ8
"we went from an infinite number of universes with almost as many earths, to one." - 52 #6

https://postimg.cc/p5xG1Kr2
"krona peered back in time and triggered the creation of an infinite number of parallel universes" - jsa #20

......and there's quite a bit more out there.

yall can cling to a handful of cherry picked statements from a 40 year old comic series if you want. i'll stick with the much more recent information. cheers.

A few more

Action Comics 590
https://postimg.cc/87pNqJ3z
Countdown 44
https://postimg.cc/ZC013813
Dark Crisis Big Bang
https://postimg.cc/gallery/F4qwfY0
Superman Space Age 1
https://postimg.cc/PLwHDBFB

I could post dozens more if I wanted.

I mean it says infinite several times in COIE.
But yeah. Overkill.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
are people seriously arguing that the multiverse didn't have infinite universes during..... crisis on INFINITE earths? lmfao.

https://postimg.cc/3kbqJySB
"we were split into an infinite number of universes" - coie #5

https://postimg.cc/pyPctbRk
"experiments carried out by krona resulted in the creation of an infinite number of universes." - dc encyclopedia

https://postimg.cc/RWqVsDWZ
"countless universes were erased from existence in a spreading tide of antimatter" - jla in crisis #1

https://postimg.cc/DJGHN2cc
"the crisis to come would usher in a wave of infinite deaths on infinite worlds" - 52 #3

https://postimg.cc/Zvh2t17z
"a multiverse where universes and planets such as earth were replicated and mirrored across a vibrating infinite plane." - 52 #4

https://postimg.cc/Cdj9Hx5h
"at the time, there was an infinite number of universes." - 52 #5

https://postimg.cc/dLwpWcZ8
"we went from an infinite number of universes with almost as many earths, to one." - 52 #6

https://postimg.cc/p5xG1Kr2
"krona peered back in time and triggered the creation of an infinite number of parallel universes" - jsa #20

......and there's quite a bit more out there.

yall can cling to a handful of cherry picked statements from a 40 year old comic series if you want. i'll stick with the much more recent information. cheers.

All true. 👆

But the genesis of this particular conversation was limited to the pages of Crisis on Infinite Earths. To be frank, what happened was utterly retconned (but not) but kinda was (even though attempts have been made to conglomerate everything). The continuity of DC is incredibly ripe for selectivity but that is a convewsation for another time.

In the end, if you want to argue Supergirl was multiversal+++ when she physically beat the crap out of Anti-Monitor, that's your cup of tea.

Originally posted by Smurph
While all true, those problems (inconsistencies, retcons, multiple interpretations) aren't the problems I was getting at. As Astner points out, the standard assumption on the forum is that an omniversal power > a multiversal power > a universal power. If that hierarchy isn't necessarily true, then I can't see how you can answer the title of this thread, even if we were all agreed on how to interpret COIE.

And I'm not raising the point in order to protect some self serving reasoning. I have no dog in the fight.

Why wouldn't that hierarchy be true?

As far as I'm concerned, multiversal should not be confused with universal on KMC. A fully functioning universe includes all the dimensions and planes of reality associated with that universe. Trying to argue that a universe = multiverse based on wordplay is disingenuous.

Originally posted by Juntai
Well, the worlds were wiped out, the Anti-matter realm expanded.

And I bet that number of worlds seemed huge to a writer in 1985. lol

So the antimatter realm expanded via space alone but no new worlds manifested? That's actually a really clever workaround to the problem. 👆

Definitely worthy of a KMC No-Prize.

Originally posted by ODG
All true. 👆

But the genesis of this particular conversation was limited to the pages of Crisis on Infinite Earths. To be frank, what happened was utterly retconned (but not) but kinda was (even though attempts have been made to conglomerate everything). The continuity of DC is incredibly ripe for selectivity but that is a convewsation for another time.

In the end, if you want to argue Supergirl was multiversal+++ when she physically beat the crap out of Anti-Monitor, that's your cup of tea.

what retcon are you meaning specifically? COIE says several times that it’s infinite universes. He pointed out one such instance in COIE 5.

Another one just from the top of my head without searching is the narration after the Spectre/AntiMonitor battle when describing how we went from infinite universes to now just one as the universe resets.

It’s infinite, then and in essentially every reference since, let it go.

Originally posted by ODG
Why wouldn't that hierarchy be true?

As far as I'm concerned, multiversal should not be confused with universal on KMC. A fully functioning universe includes all the dimensions and planes of reality associated with that universe. Trying to argue that a universe = multiverse based on wordplay is disingenuous.

this is actually one of the issues I have with a lot of Marvel events. They refer to their universe as a multiverse constantly if it involves Asgard or other dimensions.

As for Supergirl, we can go back and forth on sliding scales of infinite for how powerful Antimonitor may have been, but putting down universal/multiversal threats when everything is at stake is just something Kryptonians do so regularly that no one bats an eye at it anymore. More specifically Superman does, but they were giving her a send-off, and Kara wasn’t in the main universe for another 20 years after.

How strong was World Forger in the 6th dimension when Superman one punched him? How powerful was Barbatos when Superman one punched him? How powerful was Imperiex when Superman one punched him? Etc etc

Originally posted by Juntai
what retcon are you meaning specifically? COIE says several times that it’s infinite universes. He pointed out one such instance in COIE 5.

Another one just from the top of my head without searching is the narration after the Spectre/AntiMonitor battle when describing how we went from infinite universes to now just one as the universe resets.

It’s infinite, then and in essentially every reference since, let it go.

COIE said way more within it's own pages that it involved thousands of universes. Other people are bringing up retcons.

I posted the scan where Harbinger said, "In this new universe, there were never 1,000 earths, or even five. There was only one." Not sure what page you're referring to.

Again, the genesis of my initial conversation was about the standards that people hold. Without being delicate, there are people who will happily bend over backwards relying on ancillary sources rather than the primary source of the storyline itself to promote/magnify certain characters/feats, i.e., "Every storyline since COIE confirmed it's infinitely multiversal scope." But then those same posters will approach a different character from across the publishing divide and utterly turn around and point out shortfalls & language within the primary source of the storyline itself to denigrate other characters/feats, i.e., "Meh, Doom blew up the Beyonders with a few hundred thousand Molecule Man bomb... unimpressive."

I'm not going to require people to retrace the genesis of my initial conversation because now several people have jumped into it. But even those who jumped into it can go ahead and twist themselves into justifying how Supergirl is multiversal+++. That's their burden to bear, not mine.

Originally posted by Juntai
As for Supergirl, we can go back and forth on sliding scales of infinite for how powerful Antimonitor may have been, but putting down universal/multiversal threats when everything is at stake is just something Kryptonians do so regularly that no one bats an eye at it anymore. More specifically Superman does, but they were giving her a send-off, and Kara wasn’t in the main universe for another 20 years after.

How strong was World Forger in the 6th dimension when Superman one punched him? How powerful was Barbatos when Superman one punched him? How powerful was Imperiex when Superman one punched him? Etc etc

Bruh, if anybody needs to let something go, it's this. Chalk it up to PIS. I have no interest in dissecting the notion that Supergirl beating the sh1t out of a multiversal Anti-Monitor leads to her being multiversal+++. The absurdity of it speaks for itself.

It's just a supremely ironic consequence of the peanut gallery's own rationale that is convenient to shove back into their faces when they think they've any ground to condemn my criticisms.

Originally posted by Juntai
this is actually one of the issues I have with a lot of Marvel events. They refer to their universe as a multiverse constantly if it involves Asgard or other dimensions.
Anybody arguing that "Marvel Earth + extradimensional Asgard = a fully functioning multiverse" is retarded.

By that same token though, do you have the same issue when posters try to promote the multiversality of Vertigo titles? I mean... Lucifer vol.1's great battle towards the end involved Fenris and the World Tree???

Am I the only one profoundly struck by the irony here?