Who can stop... Dr. Flobo!? (read stips)

Originally posted by Galan007
You're misunderstanding my strat.

Dr. Flobo only needs to steal the speed of 3-4 clones, and he's already faster than Zoom. That said, even if Flobo absorbed the speed of millions of clones, I'd still have billionS of clones leftover(conservatively) to fight in the battle itself.

So yes, a vast army of fully-powered Flobo clones is very much in play here. 👆

Now now. Just because Dr. Flobo is cartoonishly broken under these conditions, doesn't mean you have to start trying to nitpick at the rules. 🙂

Also, it's not like Dr. Flobo is using his prep phase to travel to the 5th dimension and recruit Mxy or w/e. All the help he's getting in this battle is literally coming from himself. 👆

Honest question:
With prep time, is a character only allowed to bring others into the fight if they can create them on their own during prep?

Originally posted by ODG
It seems we both agree there would be in-fighting due to Doom's ego. And based on the scans you just posted, there would be in-fighting even due to Lobo's ego. I honestly thought that Lobo was self-aware enough to simply not care about a clone scenario and that would blunt Doom's ego. But, no, it appears that Lobo's personality would only enhance their conglomerated self-conceit.

Now I get that the point of your scan was to show that despite Lobo's self-conceit, he'd resolve himself to fight external foes before himsel(ves). But Dr. Flobo isn't simply Lobo, right? He's also Doctor Doom. There's a difference, no? Now, while I think I am fairly parsing the nuances of character-personalities, if you think I'm begging the question to distract from powersets, fine.

But if you think that, then our controversy should boil down to whether a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord's misdirection powers could afflict Dr. Flobo and/or his blood-clones and exploit their self-destructive vanity or not.

You insist the infighting would only happen after killing Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord. That seems arbitrary. Indeed, an obvious misdirection scenario that could be imposed is making them think the external battle is over, leaving them to gloat/fight amongst themselves into oblivion while Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord stands back.

Because SK can body hop and shrug off the host dying. And Meggan can exist as part of the environment, so I guess even more options for where to hop consciousness into. But more importantly, Meggan's empathy control should be enough to *push* the clones into all out warfare.

It's specifically not psi and shouldn't be negated by existing defenses. It should tap into Czarnian rage. As she did to the demons in hell:

Originally posted by ODG
It seems we both agree there would be in-fighting due to Doom's ego. And based on the scans you just posted, there would be in-fighting even due to Lobo's ego. I honestly thought that Lobo was self-aware enough to simply not care about a clone scenario and that would blunt Doom's ego. But, no, it appears that Lobo's personality would only enhance their conglomerated self-conceit.

So no, I do not think in-fighting would be an issue at all during the battle itself(just like it wasn't a problem during Death Metal.)

Originally posted by ODG
But Dr. Flobo isn't simply Lobo, right? He's also Doctor Doom. There's a difference, no? Now, while I think I am fairly parsing the nuances of character-personalities, if you think I'm begging the question to distract from powersets, fine.

But if you think that, then our controversy should boil down to whether a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord's misdirection powers could afflict Dr. Flobo and/or his blood-clones and exploit their self-destructive vanity or not.

You insist the infighting would only happen after killing Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord. That seems arbitrary.

Originally posted by ODG
Indeed, an obvious misdirection scenario that could be imposed is making them think the external battle is over, leaving them to gloat/fight amongst themselves into oblivion while Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord stands back.

Originally posted by h1a8
Honest question:
With prep time, is a character only allowed to bring others into the fight if they can create them on their own during prep?

Now if he was trying to recruit true outside help during the prep phase(ie. calling in the Justice League or w/e), that would be a violation of the rules.

Originally posted by Smurph
But more importantly, Meggan's empathy control should be enough to *push* the clones into all out warfare.

It's specifically not psi and shouldn't be negated by existing defenses. It should tap into Czarnian rage. As she did to the demons in hell:

Originally posted by Galan007
Lobo: "After they're done fraggin' those losers, they'll probably turn on each other..."

So no, I do not think in-fighting would be an issue at all during the battle itself(just like it wasn't a problem during Death Metal.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Frankly, I don't think your amalgam would get a chance to pull any of this off. Even Barry would be a statue in comparison to my prepped/amped Dr. Flobo

But let's set aside the chicken-and-egg notion of the Speedforce/Barry Allen.

Modern Flash comics explore the Speedforce going awry because the Speedforce isn't some simple static force to be utilized without consequence. If you abuse it, you risk catastrophe. So it's arguable that the strategy of Dr. Flobo arrogantly utilizing the Speedforce via infinite blood-cloning w/o limits could prove utterly self-catastrophic. Taken another step further, Doom & Lobo's combined ego might even unintentionally sabotage Wally's own self-limiters that would assert measured control over the Speedforce.

Think Mister Sinister & Quicksilver's combined arrogant/impetuous egos compromising Jean Grey's measured (but tenuous) control over the Phoenixforce leading to a self-conflagration. That might happen as a simple consequence of that amalgam, right?

But what if you had a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord pushing those exact buttons with adroit misdirection?

Originally posted by ODG
Let me repeat myself: what if Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord used their misdirection powers on them [b]during the battle itself? This appears to be a wholly separate hill for you to plant your flag upon to avoid the considerations set forth. In which case, I still respectfully disagree. Barry Allen has basically been the Speed Force, on-panel. That's why I chose him, after all. It's possible he could negate, counter, exploit, the unfettered abuse of the Speedforce being proposed here.

But let's set aside the chicken-and-egg notion of the Speedforce/Barry Allen.

Modern Flash comics explore the Speedforce going awry because the Speedforce isn't some simple static force to be utilized without consequence. If you abuse it, you risk catastrophe. So it's arguable that the strategy of Dr. Flobo arrogantly utilizing the Speedforce via infinite blood-cloning w/o limits could prove utterly self-catastrophic. Taken another step further, Doom & Lobo's combined ego might even unintentionally sabotage Wally's own self-limiters that would assert measured control over the Speedforce.

Think Mister Sinister & Quicksilver's combined arrogant/impetuous egos compromising Jean Grey's measured (but tenuous) control over the Phoenixforce leading to a self-conflagration. That might happen as a simple consequence of that amalgam, right?

But what if you had a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord pushing those exact buttons with adroit misdirection? [/B]

See, you're assuming the minds of Lobo and Doom would meld in a bad way. I disagree. Personally, I think it would only bring out the best of them, strategically. Would Flobo be the worst kind of douchebag imaginable personality-wise? Absolutely. Would he still retain an immense desire to beat his opponent first and foremost? Undoubtedly. As mentioned, neither Doom or Lobo would ever knowingly prioritize defeat over victory. The 'w' itself(against his opponent) would come first; the in-fighting would come second(which makes it irrelevant here), imo.

That's the thing: absorbing the speed of millions/billions/infinities of clones isn't a prerequisite in order to render even the likes of Zoom a statue(nvm Barry) -- a handful will do just fine. How much tampering Flobo could do to the SF before everything crumbled is virtually unknown, but it takes a lot. Regardless, with Wally's abundance of high-level knowledge/history regarding the SF specifically + the ability to calc infinite scenarios almost instantaneously + Doom's(and Lobo's, tbh) vast strategical minds, Dr. Flobo would absolutely know how much was too much. Shouldn't be a problem.

So yeah, an amped/prepped Dr. Flobo just blitzes your fossilized Fantomexwell-Lord at the onset, ftw, imo. 👆

What if all of that was just an illusion from Fantomex

Originally posted by Galan007
Question:
Even if this worked, and you nudged Dr. Flobo into a rage, doesn't it also have the potential to backfire heavily? ie. You'd still have a vast army of hyper-amped Flobo clones attacking you, except now they'd be bloodlusted as well. mmm

You could merge, say, SK with Henshaw and Jared Stevens and have a character that's pretty much impossible for Flobo to contain or kill. The trick is figuring out if you can sub out one of those for a character who provides the offense needed to either take out Flobo prime or turn his army against him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What if all of that was just an illusion from Fantomex

No Charlie's powers are thought based and still need to be "activated" I believe.

Completed unrelated, but it would also be cool if you could have Dr Flobo use magic or whatever to take control of his clones so they all follow his will alone and wouldn't even feel the urge to fight each other anyways. 😄

Originally posted by Galan007
Are his abilities passive? Can't remember.

It's difficult to say, as we don't always see it 'active', so to speak. When the illusion starts, we don't see.

Originally posted by Smurph
That's why you need a character with really great passive defense, even as against speedsters.

You could merge, say, SK with Henshaw and Jared Stevens and have a character that's pretty much impossible for Flobo to contain or kill. The trick is figuring out if you can sub out one of those for a character who provides the offense needed to either take out Flobo prime or turn his army against him.

You could just stab Flobo Prime:

. He'll never miss.

Originally posted by Galan007
Only thing I would add is that the whole "ethereal" aspect of SK might not even matter to Dr. Flobo:
https://ibb.co/vCfyf302
https://ibb.co/Ngg4DPTK
https://ibb.co/spFw5h3D

...And if he can touch you, he can IMP you! 🥷

if lobo's toon force allowed for him to physically touch shadow king, then he could indeed imp him. what that does to shadow king's ethereal form i do not know.

Originally posted by Infinaut616
Completed unrelated, but it would also be cool if you could have Dr Flobo use magic or whatever to take control of his clones so they all follow his will alone and wouldn't even feel the urge to fight each other anyways. 😄

No, for this strat I prefer the clones as they are: an absolutely identical copy of the original(aside from the random "one in a billion" strandcasts/defects [like Slobo] you might get.) IOW, they are, quite literally, you: same powers, same memories, same mannerisms, same goals, same everything(the clone is you, you are the clone. Literally.) As such, each and every clone in Dr. Flobo's army is a fully independent being, with the same initial objective: ie. "Frag the other amalgam"... And since we know the clones will work together long enough to achieve their primary goal, mutual cooperation between them shouldn't be an issue where the battle itself is concerned. And that's... Really all I need from them in this scenario.

That way I also don't have to rely on some esoteric spell/link from one Dr. Flobo holding the entire strat together. With my strat, billions of clones(or even "Flobo-Prime"😉 can die, and it ultimately doesn't matter at all. /Flobo is

Your idea would be better if my objective were to overrun the universe with clones, and keep it that way long-term(to prevent in-fighting.) 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's difficult to say, as we don't always see it 'active', so to speak. When the illusion starts, we don't see.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
i know you're joking, but this is kinda true.

if lobo's toon force allowed for him to physically touch shadow king, then he could indeed imp him. what that does to shadow king's ethereal form i do not know.

@Smurph

Regarding your multiversal Shadow King embodiment strat: If you're going that route(and since I don't know enough to debate SK's capabilities otherwise), then I guess it's finally time to pull out the big guns ...[*uncomfortable pause*]... Dr. Flobo will have direct access to the Ultimate Nullifier during his prep phase *thx Doom*:
https://ibb.co/rR8mMzSp

On top of that, Dr. Flobo has direct access to The Hall of Lost and Found at the JL Watchtower as well *thx Wally*. Aside from the obvious, items like the Cosmic Treadmill and/or Worlogog could also allow for scenarios like this to unfold:

ie. Dr. Flobo could theoretically use time shenanigans to endlessly duplicate/spam every single relic he has immediate access to(*if needed, for some reason)... And any thought-based weapons(like the UN) are being fueled by the indomitable will and unparalleled god-brain of Doom+Lobo(IOW, bound to be successful.)

...So yeah, I couldn't think of a more unbeatable amalgam under these conditions. Personally, I wouldn't have Dr. Flobo use the aforementioned resources unless absolutely necessary. That's no fun, and you can't really counter an "OTK" like that(especially with unbalanced prep.)

This thread is basically The Kobayashi Maru of amalgam strats. 🪩

Originally posted by Galan007
In Lobo's case, blood-cloning is part of his natural biology. Using one's own biology to one's own advantage is perfectly acceptable. That's technically what every superhero does anyway -- Dr. Flobo just takes it to the extreme under these conditions, obvs.

Now if he was trying to recruit true outside help during the prep phase(ie. calling in the Justice League or w/e), that would be a violation of the rules.

I mean, isn't that what Lobo's doing?

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just keeping the onus where it belongs. Someone's welcome to argue that Flobo can magically attack Shadow King, but they should argue it and prove it.

If the solution is to magically attack him on the astral plane (ie Strange's magical telepathy and magical astral projection), then I think there is actually a lot of evidence that speed advantages do not translate 1:1. Or possibly at all.

A magical spell can seal, absorb, and or contain him.
Flobo can cast the spell in less than an attosecond.